Wikipedia:What's going to be the future of diq.wikipedia: Ferqê çımraviyarnayışan

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::: There is no hatred at all. My point is very clear: there is no logic behind the idea of writing in a language that people don't understand. This only discourage them. Let people to write and read the way they know. Creating artificial languages are just personal aspirations of several young people many of the are not even natural speakers. The artificiality comes from the fact that combining things in a way that don't exist in reality as a whole identity, Essentially nobody understands. Most people don't care of older forms. If they cared, they would be like Avesta-Zazaki. Anyways, people wants to write and read the way they know. We have to listen to them. We have to encourage them to write. This happens by giving them the opportunity to write the way they know. We should not chase them away or call them "wrong" as some did those things here. The result was unacceptable on my part. I will assure to those people that they are welcomed here. My fist accomplishment is ZazaYasar. I'm convincing other natural speakers. Sometimes it is hard because of their previous experiences here with some certain people. You and everybody know the story well. By and large this is my goal. Help to people to write and make them flourish this Wikipedia. --[[User:Xosere|Xosere]] 07:06, 24 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)
::: There is no hatred at all. My point is very clear: there is no logic behind the idea of writing in a language that people don't understand. This only discourage them. Let people to write and read the way they know. Creating artificial languages are just personal aspirations of several young people many of the are not even natural speakers. The artificiality comes from the fact that combining things in a way that don't exist in reality as a whole identity, Essentially nobody understands. Most people don't care of older forms. If they cared, they would be like Avesta-Zazaki. Anyways, people wants to write and read the way they know. We have to listen to them. We have to encourage them to write. This happens by giving them the opportunity to write the way they know. We should not chase them away or call them "wrong" as some did those things here. The result was unacceptable on my part. I will assure to those people that they are welcomed here. My fist accomplishment is ZazaYasar. I'm convincing other natural speakers. Sometimes it is hard because of their previous experiences here with some certain people. You and everybody know the story well. By and large this is my goal. Help to people to write and make them flourish this Wikipedia. --[[User:Xosere|Xosere]] 07:06, 24 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)

::::Xosere, you provoke us and when we try to explain something, you don’t even listen to it. For you seems everything to be nonsensical. And mainly you enforce your thing. Where remains in your opinion the justice? If you were be fair and could discuss with a civilized manner, you wouldn’t have driven the matter so into the abyss. You don’t even admit your own mistakes and see it as a reproach. You have apparently already forgotten your swear words and insults in your private emails. I'm not unforgiving and this leads not fair here. I leave it on your conscience.

::::The standard language should now be moot point. That we now put aside. But, all Zazaki dialects are equal, I always said it. You can read the archive if you forget it maybe. Your arguments are contradictory. If you're in the feel cornered, you try to sell us. Where you say, this is only for DIQ determined and banish the northern dialect from the outset. Where is the equality of all dialects, as if everyone should write what he has learned as a mother tongue. You don’t even know the difference between the dialects. Especially since don’t you know your own dialect well enough. Your dialect is in fact the central Zazaki, for which no code exists. How can you stand up for the Southern dialect? The time now is the pure truth. So don’t misrepresent the matter and stick to the truth.

::::And now you accuse people with to be non-native speakers. Every time you come up with something new and confuse the situation even more than it already is. I’m in any case a true native speaker. My first learned language is with certainty Zazaki, because up to my 10th year of life I grew up in the countryside of Pülümür. Even years after, I had ever contacted my relative, especially my grandma and grandpa's, whose primary language Zazaki was. Can you say unlike the same from yourself?

::::Please, stop your accusations finally. How can you ignore all of our hard work? How do you take the right to say we should go? Don't come no longer with more excuses and recriminations. With your current behavior, nobody will want to work with you, not even Zaza Yaşar or else who ever. It is probably only your own dream. Then you can still wait a long time, believe me it will be this way. Unless you change yourself for the better and we will continue our work in peace. And everyone is welcome, with his own dialect! --[[User:Mirzali|Mirzali]] 09:56, 24 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)

Revizyonê 24 Keşkelun 2008, seate 09:56 de

I think we had enough so far. We have to decide the future of this wikipedia. The current way of the pedaling this think is quite annoying. I'll write down several options that this wikipedia might take:

Current Situation: Implementing a so-called “standard language” is not a viable option because there is simply no accepted “standard language”. This Wikipedia is not a test board. I don’t want to deal with that issue. That’s what I had to say about this. I don’t want to talk about it anymore. I just had enough about this issue. Second point: there is no right and wrong in dialects. They are just dialects and every dialect is right. That’s why other variants have to be used.

Future Options: 1. Have separate wikipedias: we have diq.wikipedia and kiu.wikipedia. Then, we wiki-transport all the articles to kiu.wikipedia. There you go, use whichever variants you want. 2. Divide diq.wikipedia into two: Than we have two separate main-pages. This is going to be like “test wikipedia” pages. Than we have to use something like diq/title (or d/title) and kiu/title (or k/title) for headings. System messages will include variants.

I have these two options. We have to choose a direction. If you have other new ideas feel free to write here. --Xosere 16:16, 20 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

What is the problem on the standard language? It is using the most original variants of the same words, this ist the standard language. Everybody is free to use the words of his own region (example: bacar, suke), but what is false in that, if everybody use the most old variants of the same words? --AliErsoy 18:15, 20 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)
I am tired of these same discussions over and over. No, I'm not going to let you to turn this into a discussion of standard language. Enough is enough. There are already pages of pages of the same discussion. I want to write in a language that really do exist. This is not try-and-fail board. You are free to create a "standard" language, but Wikipedia is not your test area. Go do it somewhere else. Xosere 01:25, 21 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)
Look, you even didn't understand the simple word "wına" ("böyle"), and thought again that the problem were the Northern Dialect. ALLTOUGH this word is from Central and Southern Zazaki. That what you believe has not doing with the facts. To believe is not to know. You have to research more about the words they you not understand. --AliErsoy 10:09, 21 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)
There are a lot of dialect in diq itself. That many times words are different. However there is no problem in understanding each other. Our sound are the same. --Xosere 19:24, 21 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)
I want to write in a language that do realy exist. Feel free to create a "standard" language somewhere else. I am also tired of writing and deleting. this is diq.wikipedia.org. Xosere 12:30, 21 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)
I think Ali is right with his arguments. And if Wikipedia is not a test board, who wanted to create a ne alphabet and some new grammar rules? Before all, nobody is here aganist vernaculars, but we don't insist on our regional forms and are open for critics and new ideas. We talked at the beginning about the standardization and the criteria and you agreed. You say, this is not a test area. You tried to empoze us your new alphabet and some other things. Your problem Xosere is, that you are not yet able to write on your own dialect, which is also very different from "dimili" (southern). You did vrey much to build Zazakipedia and nobobody denies that. But it is the presupposition at all to rule and speak a language perfectly to work on a encyclopaedia. otherwise the ones credibility is doubtable. Don't think the problem of the several vernaculars will be solved when you divide. The differences between southern and central zaza and central itself is bigger than in nothern zaza. --Asmên, 14:57 (CET), 21.9.2008
You are not bringing any idea here. All you do is blaming blaming and blaming. These three dialect idea was yours; now you say I am going to make it only one code at ethnolugue. What a bomber! Yes Bingol-pali are included in that diq dialect. You can't argue against to that. There are several people who will contribute to this wikipedia if things get going. You are free to create your "standard" langauge, and create a wikipedia too if you convience wikimedia. However, this is "diq" wikipedia. Diq does not include kiu. I am proposing you several ideas to help to solve the issue, but all you do is blame someone else. You guys did this all the time. People don't have to use your standard, vate's standard or whatever. You can't do it especially using our code. --Xosere 19:21, 21 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)
Asmen and Mirzali do write in a language that really exist. The words they use do exist in the Zazaki-Language. So its not artifical. And anyway from village to village every Zaza pronounce the words different. "diq" and "kiu" are part of the "zza"-Language.
At the begin you agreed, that is necessary, to create a common phonetic. And now you support the chaos and mean that is no a problem, that everybody use the 9999999 loud-variants of the same word. What is the sense of this thinkness? This different phonetic is the reason for the communication problem.
Yes, in some parts they made a mistake, as in the favorism of the word "ki" for "also", while nobody of the Central and Southern Zazas can understand this. But 90% of their standardized phonetic is right. --AliErsoy 13:16, 21 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)
It is artificial new langauge that nobody understand. Because this artificial language people do not contribute or even read or even care about this project, not the mention's Mirazli's arrogant attitude irked people. I understand them now why should they do when they don't understand that artificial language. --Xosere 19:27, 21 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)

Xosere, you make here every time new rules, and others need to keep it or what? You don’t even want to learn simple grammatical rules in Zazaki. It is also not a standard language, each Zazaki dialect is equivalent. But you have no idea of any Zazaki dialect and you object you permanently, with what you say. We are those of being who is tired. You should stop with your tenacity. So you will achieve nothing with such an attitude and nobody will support you. You need that to get finally. Otherwise you will harm this project and the Zazaish language.--Mirzali 13:53, 21 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)

The funny thing dude is that neither you nor Asmen contributed here that much; However, you guys feel okay to manipulate anything here. I do study my own dialects's grammar, and I have three people who will contribute here. They are ready and they have tons of articles. I will do the technical stuff here and contribute with some short articles. Now, as I said this is "diq" wikipedia. You have the option to have a "kiu" wikipedia. This is very easy and most confortable. If not, then the option is to divide this wikipedia. If diq was not occupied I was going to that months ago. Xosere 19:33, 21 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)
You arrogant, selfish and stupid booby! You're ungrateful and disrespectful as well. You don't even know the difference between kal (raw) and khal (old) and like many other things like this. So do you want to make us know that you supposedly get super help from anyone? You probably dream. Where are your people? Who keeps them from doing? You are only bluffing the whole time. Come on man, because of you, we can't continue working. Other nations are light years ahead of us. And we, a few people, we argue about little things. That is just ridiculous.
Everyone is free to contribute. As if anyone would hold a pistol to somebody's head. It's their own uncertainty, because they have little or nothing knowledge of the language. So most people can’t write a simple sentence, not to mention they write any article in an encyclopaedia. Who in other Wikipedias lets ignorance or errors? It is obviously because when we intervene when it should be scientifically. Anything else would be irresponsible and naive.
Come on, be fair and admit finally your guilt and your hopelessness. Excuses like Standard language or North- and South dialect bring us nowhere. All of them are our common worldly goods. Precisely this makes the whole thing out. Separations only harm us. --Mirzali 23:23, 21 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)
You know this language will take you nowhere. you got your answer before. So, I let this one go this time. Because of you arrogance many people left already. your arrogance is many times the cause of problems here. Be careful, it is hurting you more than me. i am not going to let you use this wikipedia for your personal pleasures. This is "diq" wikipedia and only and only "diq" will be used here. Go try your personal ideas somewhere else.
p.s:Kalik means "old person" and "grandfather"/"grandmother" in southern dialects. Look at Harun Turgut's dictionary p.153 and Koyo Berz's dictionary. It might be different in Kirmanjki. That's why you should have a kiu-wikipedia. and let me, Zaza Yasar, and my other friends to start doing our work here. --Xosere 03:03, 22 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)
I’m quite sure that it does not hurt you, like me. Why should it. You had all our support only through it you reached to open this page. And now you have an easy game to manage an established page. Rather, it is far away from managing, you abuse it for your personal purpose only and play with it. On the other hand, you and Dêrsımıc put stones on the way, in which you both have contacted the Kurdists. You're probably still proud and malicious about it. Aren't you?
You haven’t even experienced nearly as much what I have been gone through in my life. I wish it even not to my worst enemy. And you’re still talking about arrogance? You're probably born with a golden spoon in your mouth. Why should you have any knowledge about your own nation and own language. Even with any books you're far away and can’t continue. There are more than the other books you mentioned. For your information, I know about all Zazaki dictionaries and I have them all. The scientific accuracy of some of them is still doubtful.
I don’t know what kind of grass do you smoke or which drugs do you take, but it has change you very in any case significantly. I advise you to let the fingers from any of them. Anyway, it seems you never come to reason. But you will find no friends in your behavior and get no help. Believe me, you will stand alone and you'll still be surprised.
P.S. In the words kal (raw), khal (old) and qal (saying), there is a pronunciation difference, so they will be written differently. There are many similar examples like this. But you will not understand, because you shall be stubborn and don’t also want it to learn. So don’t come again with any other bullshit unlike this, because you need it now to know that your arguments are not correct. --Mirzali 14:20, 22 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)
Most of stuff you wrote above is nonsense. For "khal" stuff, we don't have "kh" sound in southern dialects. It is just plain simple. So there you go: you should have your kiu.wikipedia to write stuffs like khal, phanc, -e endings and so on. I don't know why s/one like is scientific, other not. You just monopolized "science" for your personal ideas. Wait a minute. Those people are native/natural speakers of Zazaki, but you are not. Dialects are dialects. They can't be wrong or right. --Xosere 05:38, 23 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)

Xoser ("Xosere" doesn't exist!, even your nickname is a big mistake), the only reason that you don't understand simple words and sentences and also high sentences is, that your Zazaki is not enough good. Why you don't accept this and search always problems in other people and dialects. Why this ignorance? I showed you hundred times that the Northern dialect is not the problem.

Your Zazaki is so bad that you believe even that the simple song "nina rina" were in the Northern dialect different, while the basic of all dialects is the same. Central and Southern Zazas are against features like -e. But a Zaza who can speak Zazaki good has no problem with the Northern dialect in the writing.

You self know, that your Zazaki is not enough good, so why you will be sad, if you don't understand high sentences or even simple words, they are in all dialects the same.

You even didn't understand simple words like "game", while this is in every dialect and iranian language the same.

Also my Zazaki is not enough good, but I accept this and don't search a scapegoat!

And the Vate-Textes they you understand are in all dialects the same.

So don't coin such shit. And I still wait for the table, which evidence that the Northern Dialect is an another langauge and that Northern dialect is the problem, that you not understand anything.

Why you don't create this table? Put the words in this table which you don't understand, then we can see, how true is your sight.

And Mirzali wrote "khal" and not "khalık". Khalık means the same in the Northern dialect.

And if you want write in your village dialect, then write, nobody will change your texts.

Be sılamanê german. Ma gani zıwanê ho hewlêr bımusime ke her çi hewlêr fehm bıkerime. Eke tı yew çekuye fehm nêkenay, raver nia de lehçanê binan de çıya, sade wıni tı eşkenay bızanê heqiqet çıyo. --AliErsoy 16:39, 22 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)

nicks are nicks; they can be anything. this is my choice. my zazaki is good enough. besides, those who will contribute to diq. wikipedia like zaza yasar, ismail soylemez, (maybe faruk irement) are native/natural speakers. On the other hand, asman and mirzali are not natural speakers. there you go again.
people from my hometown don't understand what asman & mirazli co. writes here, even zaza yasar don't understand. We do have both "kal" and "kalik" in my dialect so what!
we don't have "game" in my dialect, we have "gom", so it is perfectly okay that i don't understand the northern variant. --Xosere 05:50, 23 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)

Bıra Ali, thanks for your efforts!

I also alluded to the word khalık (old man; grandfather), because he has change it. This is a derivative form of khal (old), by adding of the diminutive suffix of –ık (in the meaning of little).

Bıra Ali, don’t make it more complicated for him than it is. He will not understand it. By the way, there are two forms, namely xoser (masculine form) and xosere (feminine form) for independent, free. In this case it doesn’t fit the feminine form to a man as name. I think, you seemingly wanted to explain this way. --Mirzali 18:46, 22 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)

we do have both "kal" and "kalik" in my dialect so what! if you want to write kh and -e endings, you can have a kiu.wikipedia, but this is "diq" wikipedia. by the way, we have "xuserê" in my dialect which add a menaing like turkish "-lik luk". they you go one more time. Xosere 05:50, 23 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)
@Mirzali: I thought, that only mans do use as in Turkish the word "özgür" for human names. Yes, i knew that "xosere" is the feminine word of this, but I didn't know that is using for human names.
@Xoser: You say :"even zaza yasar don't understand. ". ZazaYasar said before years: "Yaslilarinizi anliya biliyorum, sadece gencleriniz cümleleri ve grameri yanlis kuruyorlar diye anlasilmiyor". This words were from ZazaYasar in MSN to me and also in the PIA-Forum he said the same thing, he means, he can understand old Northern Zazas, but not young Northern Zazas, while both speak the same dialect. Here we can see, that its all only politic.
In the Southern Dialect does exist also "gam" or "gamı". A I said: Its only a phonetic problem, the problem is not the Northern dialect.
If you think different then create me tables whith that you show, that Northern Zazs do use other words than the other Dialects.
I still don't understand why you want split the Northern Zazas from the other Zazas. Why this hate? The sentence "artifical language" is false. Because we speak all the same langauge and Mirzali and Asmen use only words from the same language Zazaki.
Its not artifical. From Village to Village there are 28900000 loud-variants of the same word. So what is artifical, if I use the most right variants of my neighbors.
If my dad say "ez kon" and my mother "ez kena", if my dad say "zon", my mother "jüan". Then what is artifical if i take the most rights form "ez kena" and "zon" of my parents?
The same is with the standardizing: We took "ez kenan" and "zıwan", because this are the oldest forms. --AliErsoy 15:27, 23 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)
There is no hatred at all. My point is very clear: there is no logic behind the idea of writing in a language that people don't understand. This only discourage them. Let people to write and read the way they know. Creating artificial languages are just personal aspirations of several young people many of the are not even natural speakers. The artificiality comes from the fact that combining things in a way that don't exist in reality as a whole identity, Essentially nobody understands. Most people don't care of older forms. If they cared, they would be like Avesta-Zazaki. Anyways, people wants to write and read the way they know. We have to listen to them. We have to encourage them to write. This happens by giving them the opportunity to write the way they know. We should not chase them away or call them "wrong" as some did those things here. The result was unacceptable on my part. I will assure to those people that they are welcomed here. My fist accomplishment is ZazaYasar. I'm convincing other natural speakers. Sometimes it is hard because of their previous experiences here with some certain people. You and everybody know the story well. By and large this is my goal. Help to people to write and make them flourish this Wikipedia. --Xosere 07:06, 24 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)
Xosere, you provoke us and when we try to explain something, you don’t even listen to it. For you seems everything to be nonsensical. And mainly you enforce your thing. Where remains in your opinion the justice? If you were be fair and could discuss with a civilized manner, you wouldn’t have driven the matter so into the abyss. You don’t even admit your own mistakes and see it as a reproach. You have apparently already forgotten your swear words and insults in your private emails. I'm not unforgiving and this leads not fair here. I leave it on your conscience.
The standard language should now be moot point. That we now put aside. But, all Zazaki dialects are equal, I always said it. You can read the archive if you forget it maybe. Your arguments are contradictory. If you're in the feel cornered, you try to sell us. Where you say, this is only for DIQ determined and banish the northern dialect from the outset. Where is the equality of all dialects, as if everyone should write what he has learned as a mother tongue. You don’t even know the difference between the dialects. Especially since don’t you know your own dialect well enough. Your dialect is in fact the central Zazaki, for which no code exists. How can you stand up for the Southern dialect? The time now is the pure truth. So don’t misrepresent the matter and stick to the truth.
And now you accuse people with to be non-native speakers. Every time you come up with something new and confuse the situation even more than it already is. I’m in any case a true native speaker. My first learned language is with certainty Zazaki, because up to my 10th year of life I grew up in the countryside of Pülümür. Even years after, I had ever contacted my relative, especially my grandma and grandpa's, whose primary language Zazaki was. Can you say unlike the same from yourself?
Please, stop your accusations finally. How can you ignore all of our hard work? How do you take the right to say we should go? Don't come no longer with more excuses and recriminations. With your current behavior, nobody will want to work with you, not even Zaza Yaşar or else who ever. It is probably only your own dream. Then you can still wait a long time, believe me it will be this way. Unless you change yourself for the better and we will continue our work in peace. And everyone is welcome, with his own dialect! --Mirzali 09:56, 24 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)