Karber vaten:Xoser/Arşiv 3

aile vs. keye

Şo: http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Zazakiy%C3%AA_Wikipediyao_Standard/Zazaki_de_%C3%A7ekuy%C3%AA_%C4%9Feribi#tewr

lûwe

lûwe with "w" is to the original the most near, also in asmens standard it is lûwe. the "e" because its an feminine word. so its not necessary, to put the question-symbol. we can see clearly which variant is the most original. "w" is to "p" or "b" nearer then "y". --Dêsımıc 11:55, 20 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

also the sanskrit-version shows, which version is the oldest verision: rûwe with "w". you can also ask your professor to the avesta example, you get the same result

kurdish made also as zazaki in some cases a b -> v change:

Persian - Kurmanci - Sorani - Zazaki - English:

• âb - av - aw - awe - water
• şeb - şev - şew - şewe - night
• rôbâh - revî - rowî - lûwe - fox
• xâb - xew - xew - hewn - sleep
• leb - lev - lew - lew - lip

if asmen also made "lûwe / lüwe" standard, then there are no problems, to choose the "done"-symbol. also asmen researched old iranian etc. before he made "lüwe / lûwe" standard. --Dersimıc 14:11, 20 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Okay. Xosere 16:25, 20 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Hi again, I created the protals, you can improve them. Also the removing of the Month-Days of "Kanune" are finish. --Dersimıc 16:30, 20 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I'll take care of portals. Xosere 16:39, 20 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

kıhan and û

Hi Bıra, its were nice if you ask at your professor to middle iranian or oldiranian examples for the words "old" and "and", that we can put them finally to the standard page and everybody can use them. Thanks. --Dersimıc 12:17, 21 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

now i see, that you use also sûr instead of sur. if you use new spellings, then please add befor this to the standard page the variants, the standard form and then the historic sources, that everybody do know why you use a new variant. thanks. --Dersimıc 13:40, 21 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

I saw now in Paul horn, that "sur" with "u" is to the original more near, look to word number 730. I added "sur" to the standard page:

http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Zazakiyê_Wikipediyao_Standard/Sıfet --Dersimıc 13:48, 21 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure that there is a "sur" variant exist? Zazaists skip "û". Also Vate made "sûr" standard. --Xosere 15:10, 21 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, i am not sure, we must ask asmen and mirzali, please ask you, thanks. --Dersimıc 15:11, 21 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Maybe that x load went over u sound. Xosere 15:12, 21 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

yes, i also in kurdish the "x" loud went, kurmanci: sor, sorani: sûr. --Dersimıc 15:20, 21 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Zazaki Sound Rules

Zazaki Sound rules:

• After every vocal "i" will be to "y"

• After "e" and "ê", "e" or "ê" will be to "y" (only after e and ê)

Qınceleyê < so this is false, right is: Qınceley, its in the natural sounding also suchwise. We write also:

Our spelling: Nuştey Heftey
Vates spelling: Nuşteyê Hefteyi

Vates spelling ist artifical. Our spelling is the best, because its based of the real natural sounding. Other examples:

decê baziye = kolun agrisi, bazi is feminine
raştiya çekuye = kelimenin dogrulugu, çeku is feminine

only if ê or e are before, "y" comes instead of "e" or "ê", but at other vocals the "ê" or "e" comes.

example with "e" ending in qıse (a femine word)

gırdiya qısey = sözcügün büyüklügü

we see, because of "e", the "e" doesnt come, "y" comes, its the speaking also suchwise.

I also saw that you made in some other things a mistake in izafe, example, you write "çekuy", çekuye is a feminine word so in the izafe its will be: çekuya..., example: çekuya zazaki = zazaca sözcük.

Izafe feminine ending: -e (rectus and obliquus), izafe masculine ending: -i (obliquus), nothing in rectus as in "koyo berz"
Izafe feminine beginning and middle: -a (rectus and obliquus), izafe masculine beginning and middle: -ê (obliquus), -o (rectus)

exceptions are language names, everybody write as example "durumê zazaki" (zazacanin durumu) instead of "durumê zazakiy". --Dersimıc 15:10, 21 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

PS: Don't understand me false, çekuy = plural form without izafe in rectus, it means: kelimeler:

• çeku + i = > çekuy = kelimeler.

But in the izafe its false to write as example "çekuy zazaki", the right form were with "a", "çekuya zazaki". --Dersimıc 15:47, 21 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

As you learnd without izafe, the plural building with "i", example:

• bıra = kardes, bıray (bıra + i) = kardesler
• veng = ses, vengi = sesler

You see here in some examples again the rule: after every vocal "i" changes to "y".

PS2: but if obliquus comes, then also in the "without izafe" case "an" comes, example:

kılam = sarki, kılaman vano = sarkilar söylüyor / sarkilari söylüyor.

but:
kılami estê = sarkilar vardirlar. --Dersimıc 15:49, 21 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for explanations. Can you give me some examples for these rules that you mentioned above: Izafe feminine ending: -e (rectus and obliquus), izafe masculine ending: -i (obliquus), nothing in rectus as in "koyo berz"

Izafe feminine beginning and middle: -a (rectus and obliquus), izafe masculine beginning and middle: -ê (obliquus), -o (rectus)

Thanks. Xosere 16:01, 21 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Okay, Izafe feminine beginning (in Feminine are rectus and Obliquus the same):

• roca bine = obür gün

(if you ask why "bin" gets the feminine "e" ending: worsds without gender as "bin" get the feminine ending, if the izafe of the connection word is feminine)

Izafe feminine ending:

• bırayê waye = bacinin kardesi

Izafe feminine middle:

• Sitey Almanya resmi = Resmi Almanya Sitesi, beside "a", the feminine "a" went, a + a = a
• Namey maya meymani = Misafirin annesinin adi.

Izafe masculine beginning rectus:

• koyo berz = üksek dag
• nameyo rındek = güzel isim

Izafe masculine beginning obliquus:

welatê zazayan = zazalarin yurdu.

Izafe masculine beginning, middle and end obliquus in a sentence:

• namey (beginning) koyê (middle) berzi (end) = koyo berzin ismi

Izafe masculine ending obliquus:

namey welati = yurdun adi --Dersimıc 16:15, 21 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

PS: In izafe masculine rectus there comes no ending at the end-word (example: koyo berz). Only in obliquus comes the -i ending (examley: namey koy = dagin adi, namey meymani = misafirin adi)

Common word for "example", "örnek"

Hi, i found out now, that "nımune" for "example, örnek" ist definitly iranic, look here:

http://www.nisanyansozluk.com/search.asp?w=n%FCmune&x=0&y=0

I put then the pehlevi-information of paul horn, word number 1042 as historic example here:

http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Zazakiyê_Wikipediyao_Standard/Zazaki_de_çekuyê_ğeribi#m

So, we have now a common word for "örnek", so its unnecessary, to use the arabic "misal" further. --Dersimıc 17:34, 21 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

a question:

can i replace in every article the arabic word "suke" with the pure zazaki word şarıstan (masculine) for "city", were this okay?:

http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Zazakiyê_Wikipediyao_Standard/Zazaki_de_çekuyê_ğeribi#s

also central zazas as zazayasar are against "suke". yes also the word "bacar, bazar, bajar" is pure iranic, but it has too many meanings, not only the meaning "city", also the meaning "market place". so i think, "şarıstan" were the most optimal pure word for "city". --Dersimıc 18:34, 21 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Good. "Nımune" is a good word. Suke was a word that Asmen and Mirzali used here. They were against bacar. Well if suke is Arabic, then bacar should be used. It is okay for one word to have many meanings. That happens to all languages. I never heard that şaristan word in Zazaki. What is that? Is it Persian or Kurdish?Xosere 20:37, 21 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Also bazar (tirki:pazar) and bacar are different words. Xosere 22:11, 21 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the infos, if bazar and bacar are different words, then bacar for city should be standard, asmen says that şarıstan is using by a minority. So, i will add bacar to the list, after i research at paul horn. --Dersimıc 10:48, 22 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

I added it: http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Zazakiyê_Wikipediyao_Standard/Zazaki_de_çekuyê_ğeribi#s

What should for "başkent" standard, "paytext" or "serbacar"? I am for "serbacar", because its more understanadble. --Dersimıc 14:20, 22 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

I opened now for such problems a own site:

http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Zazakiyê_Wikipediyao_Standard/Çekuyê_tercih_kerdışi --Dersimıc 14:37, 22 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

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A question, are there dialects they use "temaşe kerdene" instead of "seyr kerdene"? and what were the sentence "if he want" in your dialect? in our dialect: eke o wazeno or o ke wazeno. --Dersimıc 11:08, 22 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Serbacer looks very artificial. Paytext is better and historical. It is in the usage. It is good that you opened a new page for that.

It exist as "temaşe kerdış". in my dialect. Eke o wazeno in my dialect is "Eka/eg wı wazen" --Xosere 14:47, 22 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

I think not thats were artifical, the most Zazas don't anyway know a word for "baskent", they loaned it from kurdish "paytext" and kurds loaned it from the persians. Also in Kurdish exist "serbajar":

http://legerin.ferheng.org/search.php?lang=kurd2turk&query=baskent&ziman=ku

And also in our currently standard does exist the variant "sersuke", mirzali and asmen use "sersuke". --Dersimıc 14:49, 22 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Okay let's use Serbacar. It is understandable too. Xosere 14:51, 22 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Its the better choose, its totally understandable. But the most don't can understand "paytext". --Dersimıc 14:52, 22 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

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shit, maybe temashe is also arabic:

http://www.nisanyansozluk.com/search.asp?w=tema%FEa&x=0&y=0

gezinti; [Ferec xv] gözetleme, seyran --Dersimıc 15:24, 22 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

new question: what is "grandfather" and "grandmother" in your dialect? thanks --Dersimıc 15:49, 22 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

i spoke with asmen about "serbacar and "sersuke", he means both are artifical, "paytext" should be remain if we have already a word for capitol he says. i think he is right, i will delete "serbacar" from the list. --Dersimıc 16:20, 22 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Yeah it looks like temashe is Arabic, but seyr is also Arabic. We use "pirik" for grandfather and "nene" for grandmother. There might be another name for grandmother. I need to ask. --Xosere 20:40, 22 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

It looks like Zazaki adds another "cik", "ik" suffix. Pir is Persian. Zazaki adds "ik" and it becomes "pirik" like in "mircik" and many other examples. --Xosere 20:42, 22 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

We North Zazas do use for granfather = khalık, for grandmother = pirıke. --Dersimıc 10:48, 23 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. pirık also has second meaning as old person where it will include grandmother too. Xal means aunt in Bingol dialect. Êm also mean aunt, but that is from Arabic. Xosere 13:56, 23 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Hi, in the Northern dialect it is suchwise:

ap = amca, xal = dayı, amıke = hala, xalıke = teyze

"xal" is also arabic, I self looked to the arabic dictionary and asked also many people. --Dersimıc 14:39, 23 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

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What i am asking to me is: Why conserved "bacar" the "c", but not the "v", does a variant such "vacar" not exist? --Dersimıc 11:09, 23 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

I don't think so. Xosere 13:56, 23 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

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Yes, you are totally right with the infos, pir is iranic, e is feminine ending. we can see ık also in aw-ık-e (water), cen-ık-ke (woman). --Dersimıc 18:31, 23 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

In bingol, "aw" exist by itself. It doesn't have -ik at the end. Xosere 19:39, 23 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Hi, in Bingol exist also the variant "awık", i heard it from zazayasaar and i see it also in the song of Rencber Aziz. Also in Norhtern there is awe without "ık". But the most Zazas do use "awık" with "ık" in the daily speaking. --Dersimıc 11:49, 24 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

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I explored the izafe-system in zazaki, there is this rule, i must write it in turkish, that you understand:

sadece bir heceli disillerde "a"dan sonra "ya" gelir, örnek:

• maya mı =annem, waya mı = ablam

fakat iki heceden itibaren a'dan sonra yine a gelmez, örnek:

• doğru: keyna mı = kızım, yanlış: keynaya mı
  
• doğru: almanya gırde = büyük almanya, yanlış: almanyaya gırde

Bu Zazacanin dogasinda vardir, bunu degistirmek yapay olur, yani kabul etmeliyiz. Anlasmakda bun sayesinde hic bir sorun olmaz, "keynaya mı" gibi seyler yazsak dili bozariz. --Dersimıc 19:27, 23 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for clarification. Xosere 19:39, 23 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

No problem, this a+a at two syllables sound-rule is only for the feminine izafe-system, not for other parts of zazaki.

But the e/ê + e/ê = y and vocal+i-rule = y is for all parts of Zazaki. --Dersimıc 19:52, 23 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

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Okay, then let use "ya" as Vate. --Dersimıc 11:52, 24 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

I see now, there are also dialects they use "keynaya", see here:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=de&client=opera&rls=de&hs=hoK&q=%22keynaya%22+zazaki&btnG=Suche&lr=

• Zu keynaya xasek amê. (Güzel bir kiz geldi. / One beautiful girl came.)

--Dersimıc 12:35, 24 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

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a question, what do the most central zazas use for "where", "ça" or "kamca"? what do use the most south zazas, "kamca"? i ask because this list: Wikipedia:Zazakiyê_Wikipediyao_Standard/Çekuyê_tercih_kerdışi

I think, we should favor "kamca" (variants: kumca, komca), because it seems older and the most zazas do know this? --Dersimıc 13:34, 24 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

queston: what do you say to "soup"? we say "germe". --Dersimıc 15:50, 24 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Both of them are used and sometimes used interchangeably. I don't think that you have to chose between those two. They mean the same thing but they are different styles. Well "ça" might be older and probably similar origins with "çı" and "çıra" as English what, why, where...

In Bingol dialect, for soup, people say "germi" or "şorba". Both of the are used. Xosere 04:30, 25 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

u vs. û

asmen says this:

(ferq) (pey) 11:05, 24 Temuze 2008 Asmen (werênayış | iştıraki) m (11,611 bytes) (the conjunction 'u' is not a long "û") (bıtekılne)

http://diq.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dewlet%C3%AA_Amerika%C3%AA_Yewbiyaey&action=history --Dersimıc 15:34, 24 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

does the variant û really exist or not? maybe vate took û because auf kurdish? --Dersimıc 16:13, 24 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

it does exist. In Bingol dialect it is either "û" or "o" Xosere 16:14, 24 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Those Zazaist don't want to use û. Xosere 16:15, 24 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

if asmen says, that "u" for "and" is not a long "u", then the variant "u" does also exist, why he should lie. so there are three variants: u, û, o

And the variant "u" is the most original version, the old persian and middle persian examples show this. but if you are not sure, you can take other historic examples for "and" in iranic. without historic examples i see not a sense in the change of u -> to û. Also in todays german it is "und", and in Proto German was this *unda (see etymonline). --Dersimıc

Well I did't say he lies. There might be a u variant. In historic examples, "and" word is not just one letter. There were more louds in those words. There is one reason that Zazaists consistetly do ignore û because it is from Kurdish. I don't know why that guy always find smth to push things in his way. Xosere 16:24, 24 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

In historic examples of Old Iranic and Middle Iranic do stand always û, if û is meaning and u if u is meaning. So wee need historic examples, without historic examples a change is like asmens thinkness "böyle tahmin ediyorum" in some words.

If the "u" does exist, and if this word was in Old Persian "utā" and Middle Persian "ud", then I ask me why we should change "u" to "û", if the variant "u" is anyway existent?

And its totally normal that Zazaki shorted the words, you can see the losing of "t" or "d" in Zazaki at hundred words. But its absolutly clear, that zazaki has a connection to this old persian and middle persian words. --Dersimıc 16:29, 24 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

If there is an "o" varient in Bingol, that is puzzling. And we know that in Bingol dialect "o" turns to an "u", not the other way around. There must be smth here. I found smth else from Nisanyan: Etymology of "ve":• İsmin -i ekli (oblique, akkusativ) haliyle kullanıldığında yemin ifade eder. Karş. vallahi, velfecri. Yazımı aynı olduğu için Osmanlıca terkiplerde çoğu zaman Farsça ū ikame edilmiştir. Karş. hamdüsena, ilmühaber, seyrüsefer, zapturapt. Xosere 16:35, 24 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Give me a historic source, that shows that the "o" or "û" for "and" were in Zazaki the most original variant. The variant "u" does exist.

Farsca = New Persian. New iranian languages are totally irrelevant. --Dersimıc 16:38, 24 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Let me ask my Prof. See what he says. Xosere 16:39, 24 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Ok, this is the only possible way to standardize words. I can also take New Persian "goşn" as example to say, that "voşn" instead of "veşn" should be standard. --Dersimıc 16:40, 24 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

I want to see Avestan example. Avestan is more important because it is older. They were not interacted with foreigners like Semitics and Elamities. If you ask me I wouldn't even use Middle Persian at all, it is a different animal. Xosere 16:47, 24 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Ok, then take an Avesta example. I wil ask Asmên about an avesta example. --Dersimıc 16:50, 24 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Paul Horn Examples

I found now the old iranic examples in Paul horn for "and", in German "und":

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/8941/undae3.gif

In Avesta was this again "uta". --Dersimıc 17:34, 24 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

I added to the list:

http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Zazakiyê_Wikipediyao_Standard/Qısegırêdoği

--Dersimıc 17:46, 24 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Also Asmen says, that the Old Persian, Middle Persian and Avesta examples are right. --Dersimıc 17:46, 24 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Thanx a lot Dersimic bira. I don't wanna push sombody something. Please let taht conspiracy theories. --Asmên 20:01, 24ê Temuza 2008ine. (CET)

Conspricy theory? Before being the guy acting behind the curtains, why don't you leave the sysop post, as you said you would. Xosere 18:33, 24 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

To Dersimic: I don't know "uta" reduces completely to an "u" sound. Maybe all those louds build on the initial "u". The existence of an "o" varient in Bingol dialect is perplexing. "O" always turns to an "u" or "ue", but it dioesn't here. That shows us a different story here. The samething is with "sûr", avesta and O.P. shows "u" but its û in "sûr", as you said. This Zazaist ignores û, I don't find them creadible in these cases. Xosere 18:43, 24 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

The word "o" for "and" in Persian and Bingol Zazaki comes definitly from "u", Persian changed the middle persian "u" to "o", you can see this in hundred of words. But here were also changes of Middle Iranian o to u. Example: Parthian, Middle Persian: ô = he, she, it will be in Persian to "u, un". They are as you say different stories.

Zazaki "u" for "and" comes definitly from "uta". There are hundred of words in Zazaki, they lost the old/middle iranian d/t, its a historical process in zazaki and kurdish, examples:

Avesta: vâta, Parthian: vâd, Zazaki: va (meaning: wind)

Avesta: yat, Zazaki: ya (meaning: "or")

Avesta: nəvait-, Zazaki: neway (meaning: ninty)

Avesta: pəiti, Zazaki: be (meaning: with)

Avesta: râd, Zazaki: ra (meaning: of, to etc.)

Middle Persian: bōd, Zazaki: bo (meaning: smell)

Middle Persian: dūt, Zazaki: dû (meaning: smoke)

Avesta: cəthrə, Zazaki: jehr (meaning: poison)

Avesta: kətə-, Zazaki: keye (meaning: home)

Avesta: mât+ər, Zazaki: ma- (meaning: mother)

Avesta: pît-ər, Zazaki: pi (meaning: father)

Avesta: zāmāt + ər, Zazaki: Zama (meaning: bridegroom)

Avesta: brât+ər, Zazaki: bıra (meaning: brother)

Middle Persian: gəntum, Sanskrit: gôdhûma-, Zazaki: genım (meaning: wheat)

Avesta: spəētə, Zazaki: sıpê (meaning: white)

Parthian: bərmâden, Zazaki: berma-yene

Middle Persian: âməden, Zazaki: ame+yene

etc. etc.

PS: Asmên does accept sûr know. --Dersimıc 19:28, 24 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

First of all Persian is not Zazaki. You can't explain Zazaki sound changes through Persian sound change rules. You can find all kinds of sound changes if you look at all those languages. The issue is in Bingol’s Zazaki “u” never turns to an “o”. Yes I understand, if you take the examples from Avestan and O.Persian, "u" looks more original. But how come you definitely know that Zazaki word for “and” comes from Avestan “uta”. The issue is Zazaki neither descends from Avesta nor O. Persian. Ancestors of Zazas were probably speaking another cousin language while Avestan was spoken at the time. Unfortunately, we don’t have any documentation of that. If there were studies on Proto-Iranian words, it would be more illuminating. As you show above, in these examples some letters drop, however; many letters change too. Avestan favors “sur” variant, but we are using “sûr” because it is older. It doesn’t always work. Xosere 20:00, 24 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Also upa+serda is the root for Zazaki "Wesar", yet it looks "usar" variant is older and closer to the upa+serda. However, it is not the sound change rules in Zazaki shows "wusar" should be standard. Xosere 05:36, 25 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Bira, please convert first all Old Iranian Examples to the Zaza Alphabet. Example:

upa-sarda > in Zaza Alphabet: upe-serde, Zazaki changed in many words the old iranian "p/b" to "w". And Zazaki lost at many words the starting-vocal, so the "pe" changed to "we". From where comes the "we" in "wesar" you believe? Its comes from this "pe". The variant "wusar" does not exist, it is "usar," its a spelling mistake to write "wusar". And "usar" is a change from wesar to > usar with the losing of "e". At "usar" there is "w" not necessary. Also Asmen says:

"A 'w' is not needed before an 'u' sound"

"wesar" is the most original variant, if also asmen say this, then I am right with my sight here.

Unfortunately, we don’t have any documentation of that. << Exactly, therefore we can only use documanted iranian languages, to convince our people. Which other way we can use? And there is a reson why the "u" in "suxr" changed to "û". Because the "x" went, therefore the "u" be longer asmen sayd.

But there is no reason for that, that "û" in Zazaki were older. "u" is the oldest variant says Asmen, and he know it better as we all.

And if "u" dont come from "uta", from where then? Its simple: Old Iranian "uta" changes in Middle Iranian to "ud" and Zazaki lost again the "t / d". Also your Professor writes this.

Yes, you are right with your sight, that Avesta, Middle Persian etc. are not the ancestor-languages of Zazaki. But do we enreach something if we ignore the words of this languages? If we have not other historic examples, then the only way is to use Avsesta, Parthian, Old Persian or Middle Persian if we need it. There is no other way to standardize Zazaki.

I don't understand what is your problem is, you have not any sources that shows that û were older, so why you not accept "u", if the variant "u" is exist. We don't lived in the history, that we can know what for a delevoping made Zazaki. So we can use only documanted texts for standardizing. Everybody know, that Avesta etc. are not the ancestors of Zazaki, so its unnecessary to repeat this everytime. I see not a sense to discuss everytime about the maxim of the using of old iranian sources. You self said that we should use Avesta as first source, so where is the problem now.

We can also stop the project, because we have not documantions of the directly ancestor-language of Zazaki. We can also delete the Middle Persian example "mertum" for zazaki "merdum", while we have not better examples, nor in Avesta neither in Parthian. We can let the chaous in Zazaki, that the people take Kurdish. --Dersimıc 14:37, 25 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

I understand that if you look at Avestan and O.P. examples you have the basis to make "u" standard. But, I am not sure if this takes to the right answer. Anyways, if old version are vitally important to us, maybe, the super-linguist Asmen should accept "in/ena" variants Zazaki "in" doesn't related to them for example. Xosere 15:04, 25 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Sometimes maybe Zazaki still keeps the original words while even documented old Iranian languages loses. For example, when i said that Zazaki words for branch is "gıl" and "lizge", he said these are interesting and he find this etymology:

"Proto-Indo-European *lHghs-"'branch' (from which Lithuanaian lagzda

"shaft of spear', Polish laska 'branch'> Proto-Iranian *ligJ- (j as in

Turkish) with usual metathesis to *lijg- . Zaza l@zg-"

Xosere 15:04, 25 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I understand, sorry for my attacks. Should û be standard? --Dersimıc 15:18, 25 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

I don’t know what to say. If we stick to Old Iranian examples, then this takes us to “u”. Then, Asmen should accept “in/ena” which he says that those are not related to the Old Iranian examples. This is not easy issue. Xosere 16:16, 25 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

ca and kamca

Yes, but we must make a choose, that we have a unify language. Anyway the meanings of this words are 1:1 the same, so its not reachness, to let the word-variatons. All normal langauges have a unify word for this meaning. And its only favorism what we make, we don't kill the other words.

ça comes fom çı + ca = as in turkish nere < ne+yere . (also Zazayasar said this)
kamca from kamci + ca = hangi+yer (also Asmen says this)

They are totally different words, so its not possible to detect which word-combination is older. All words have their root until to Old Iranian.

Both words have "ca" (place) at the end, you can see "çı" (what) until to Old iranian, and you can also see "kamci" (which) until to old Iranian, in Avesta "katama" + çit > will be in Zazaki according to Asmen to "kamci".

After adding of "ca" > kamci+ca > kamca.

The Northern variant "koti" is a combination of "ko + het+i" (nereye taraf), this "ko" was in Avesta "kû", in todays Kurdish still "ku". "ku" / "ko" are actually the real words for "where" in Iranian, the words in Central and Southern are only combinations of words they were not in Old Iranian "where". "ça" comes definitly from "çı + ca" (nere + ne + yere), if you dont believe, you can ask ZazaYasar.

So I think, we should take the word, which is more understandable and I believe its "kamca".

And we can see in words like "key", that not all PIE "qw-" changes in Zazaki to "ç".

You can see this also in: who = kam.

But if the oldest version is the most important thing, then I think the northern variant is older because of "ko", what is the real word for "where". Also persians use "ku+ca" > nere+yer. Kurds only "ku" as in Avesta.

But this word exist only in the Northern, therefore I am for "kamca," because its exist in Southern and in Central. --Dersimıc 11:09, 25 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Okay, let's use "kamca". Xosere 15:06, 25 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

welat vs. wılat

"welat" in Kurdish and Zazaki does mean "memleket, vaten, yurt" etc. Its comes according to Asmen from arabic "wilāyət".

Some south kurdish dialects do use also "wılat", alltough "welat" is in Kurdish standard. Its a very important word for our Zaza-Kurdists. They use always this to show the Kurds, how similiar Zazaki were to Kurdish.

In Koyo Berz dictionary we can see that also the variant "wılat" does exist in Zazaki:

http://www.zazaki.de/zazakide/qesebendkoyo/W.htm

• wılat vatan, memleket, yurt, ülke
• wılatê Zazayan Zazaların ülkesi
• wılatıc memleketli

Also we can see in Avni Polats songs the variant "wılat":

• http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=de&q=%22w%C4%B1lat%22+zazaki&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

So my Idea: At Standardê çekuyanê ğeriban we can create an entry to make "wılat" standard to make the Kurdism weak and take the arguments of the stuopid dialect-propagangist away. That everybody see thanks of the variant "wılat", that its comes from arabic "wilayet".

Tı se fıkır kenay? (What do you think?) --Dersimıc 16:00, 25 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Fıkırê tı hewlo. Ma gerek "wılat" standard bıker. Xosere 16:20, 25 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Temam, mı kerd:

http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Zazakiyê_Wikipediyao_Standard/Standardê_çekuyanê_ğeriban#w --Dersimıc 16:23, 25 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

---

sorry, that i question so much, but its important for an unify Zazaki: What do you use for "way" (turkish "yol") in your dialect? Northern Dialect: raye. --Dersimıc 16:14, 25 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

I think it is "ra", but I need to the a double check. Xosere 16:21, 25 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

sebeb and seba

do have the words "sebeb" and "seba" the same meanings? i asked my mother, she says "sebeb" is using like in turkish as "reason", but "seba" for "for". example:

seba to = senin için
sebebê to = senin sebebin

says she. But i am not sure, please ask Asmên or Mirzali. --Dersimıc 18:59, 25 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

In Bingol, people use "qe" (maybe this is also Arabic, I not sure). For example "qe Homa", means for Homa or "qe tû" means senin icin. --Xosere 20:05, 25 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

In southern there is using "qandê", i believe its has the same root as "qe" in Bingol. But its maybe semitic? Until we have not sources about "qandê" or "qe" we can not replace "seba / semed" with "qande". In Central Dialect there is also using "semedê", in the Chermig-Mouth there is using "sevê", i asked dêrbekirij.

So everybody should use his own word, if we have anyway only foreign loan words. But at "seba, semedê" there is a phonetic-standard necessary, because they are variants of the same word. --Dersimıc 20:19, 25 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Please, stop it!

I can no longer overlook the matters. It’s gradually enough! After much other troubles now even that.

What in the hell is Aqseray? It seems to me, you just abbreviate and change where it could possibly be. How does it look like that? But just write everything in Turkish or Kurdish!

It doesn’t make more fun to explain or even correct your mistakes man. It should be enough of your part. Or, do you do that intentionally? Who are you? What kind of ideology do you track for?

You come up with a new stupid idea every day. Zazaish is not your own property. YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF THIS LANGUAGE IS NOT POWERFUL DEFINITELY. A request to you, please learn the correct grammar firstly.

Why are you destroying all our efforts and contributions? And why did you lose the respect and the confidentiality to us? Who has set such a bullshit in your head? It's really become very difficult, to get lane you.

By the way, what was this article all about Mirzali’nin Mehmet Çewligıc’e saldırısı at Veng u Vac forum? Who has since made commentaries about that? I have just heard about it and I unfortunately couldn’t read it.

And what about your remark about so-called Zazaists? What should it be? Do you ever have read this absurd article in http://www.kurdica.com/News-sid-Zazaisten-594.html clearly and did you understand it well? There appears also your pseudonym. So what is this? And what are you then?

You're on the wrong track, therefore you have to come to reason man. If not, you will certainly lose, because you have to get responsible ahead of millions of our people. On the other hand, we still can’t do more with each other.

This encyclopedia should be a scientific study. There is no place for childish behavior and any personal ideologies. It must always be objectively and independently.

You are violating the rules of this project by yourself. It does not give the right to you to defy about all the other, because you began with this project. Everyone have just as much right of co-determination, to our common language sake. I say it again, it is not your property.

Your self managed meetings don’t count more in the future. You can’t come to important decisions like this with two or three people in the shortest time, those taken to reflect millions of our people. I am no longer willing to put my signature under any false testimony, because in the distant future, this time will be accountable for me. --Mirzali 00:28, 27 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Mirzali writes:

You can’t come to important decisions like this with two or three people in the shortest time, those taken to reflect millions of our people.

And how much people take the decisions in your Institute? You and Asmên. And what decisions you take until this time, in the 6-years existence of the Zazaki Institute? I don't se any results. Anyway the Vate-Standard has etablated hisself everywhere, even Mikail Aslan use the Alphabet of them now. We Zazaists have sadly no future, everybody is Regionalist and don't accept anything.

And anyway nobody of the todays people of Dersim speak not any longer Zazaki, Zazaki is defacto a dead langauge, its like Latin, its be only a writing and music language.

Mehmet has no fault in his situation, his parents dont teached him Zazaki. Its the fault of the old people. The most young Zazas don't will learn Zazaki later as you or Asmen. They don't have any interest in Zazaki. So its false exclude young people as I or Mehmet, they give price to Zazaki, because our Zazaki is not perfect. In Wikipedia has everybody the right to change something, and if you don't have the energy to change the mistakes, then you don't understand the Wiki-Principle.

And Mehmet has right with his sight with Zazaists. The most People they say "i am zaza not kurd" do this because they don't want to be Kurds. Real Zazaists as we are minority. The most young peple they call themself "Zaza" are all turkish slaves and don't give price to Zazaki. --Dersimıc 12:25, 27 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Don’t tell me such rubbish. What are you talking about man? Should we waste our value time with your manure? Our results are known. Who do you think has drafted the texts and the system messages here so far? Do you think Xosere has done it all alone? He even is unable to write a single text without mistakes.

You muddle up everything and don’t know whom you should hold. You’re just changing like a chameleon.

I know exactly what rules are! I have no desire whatever to any discussions and polemics. The fact is that you both are not powerful in this language. So what do you can reach with your limited knowledge on it.

Do you think, you can go on further and testify to other? It is also no excuse, not to know something. But if you love this language, learn it first with the correct grammar and don’t play around with, what is already there. You both make it worse and destroy it with your stupid ideas and constantly changes, on what has been achieved already. So don’t be killjoys! --Mirzali 15:47, 27 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Have respect to the young people, we are the future. We decide if Zazaki will die or not. Its your own mistake if you not teach to the childs Zazaki and only Turkish. And I believe you made the same with your own childs. And I dont know any Zazaki learn-books except the Book of Vate. We learned Zazaki with asking and asking. If Zazaki is for you so important, why do you dont write learn books as Institute, if you want, the the young people learn the grammer better. --Dersimıc 15:52, 27 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

These are no arguments. I don’t like to repeat it, but with your ignorance, stupidity, obstinacy, disrespect and mistakes you can’t write in any encyclopedia. So go to play elsewhere. --Mirzali 17:01, 27 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Instead of telling people to leave. Why don't you fuck off. --Xosere 17:15, 27 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

I wrote many long articles in the german-wikipedia and I worked a long time in a german computer news agency, where i wrote every day very long news. From where you know what I can. You are self stupid, you don't enreached anything with your Institute and dont will enreach anything. Your Institute losed, so give up. Maybe in the yar 2017 where Zazaki get die we can see the first work of you.

this are not arguments? you self say, that we should learn zazaki. but show us a learn book, you cant it. becuse you have no interest in that, that the young people learn their language. you are an eogist, who think, that its enough, that you allone write in zazaki, during zazaki will be die.

such people as you are ignorant, you will live only in your own world and don't part anything with other people. as every topic you get a crisis. because yor are not able to be like a civilized man. --Dersimıc 17:17, 27 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

standard

Şıma re Mrv Ombazi, sılom u hürmeta;

Ez rewna ayta nê kewto, nê zono sıftayi koti ra/kom ca ra vaji. İngilizkiye mı ji bes niyo. Wextê mı ji zaf çinyo ez rınde niyewnao wikipedia, hemo ezo texmin qeno mesela ma/persê ma qona Standartê Zazakiyo...Nıqa na mesela esta qı qomo zwenê ma ser gırweyeno se, aw warzeneo wa feke cı/şive cı wa standart vo. Ez vono êna neveno..Gırwe zwen standart kerdış tıhae rıhat niyo. Ayta dı persê 1/problemê ju/mesela ju nustoğê ma tonê re. Heme/her nustoğ feqdê xo wa nuseno na 1.wa; ê 2.nı ji maalesef zonayoğe zwenê ma, wendoğê zwenê ma/zaza bilim adamları ve okurları zaf tonê re...Çıxa pêrse ma bıwe se ji gereq ma qona ji taqdir bıqımı qomo qı zwenê ma ser hevê gırweyeno..Çıqı mektevê ma çinyê, qezetê ma çinyê, medya ma çinya (yanê TV, radyo-zaf tone), Gırwekerdoğê ma peseroq vejenê, zaf tonê ison eleqe dono cı, internetdı sitey/peri/pelgi awyenê zaf ison eleqe nêdono/niyasneno/nêasneno... Hemo qona ji zaf sıkır/şukır qı qona hevê gırweyış esto, gıran gıran/gıron gıron mae veya şımı. zwenê maw veya şıno. Gorê zwenê ma vejyayışe nusto sıftayın ma zaf veya ji şimı, gereq ma ney ji inqar meqımı..

Nıqa ez bêri mesela ma/persê ma; Gorê fıqrê mı, zwen vaten ju mıletı vatena, zwen vaten ju kami vatena, zwen vaten ju qultur/kultur/culture/kültür vatena..yane Zwenê xo raşt qali/qese kerden zaf weqit/zemon kami ra dıha erciyayeno, dıha muhimo. Çıqı sırf az Zazao vatena gırwe nê qedyeno..

Beki/belki diqate şıma onto/dikkatinizi çekmiştir ezo xeylê zemono zonayena/bilerek zaf çidı herunda "k" dı "Q" nuseno...Mı ji bado/sonra ferq ke qı. Vengê "Ké u "Q" yew niyo. Êna qı: mesela kelima "kerdış" dı "K" ferqıno, "Qışqeq" - "Kışkek" ferqıno...Yanê eyni veng niyo. Na mesela Tırkidı gorê herfonê vengıni(sesli harfler)ya hal kerda. E no vatena mı rê ji ju misal bıdi. Mesela Tırkidı vengê "Kiraz" ferkıno vengê "Kalem" ferqıno, mesela "Kolay" ferqıno "Kelime ferqıno..Yanê ze qı şımae vinenê Tırkidı herfa/vengê "K" gorê herfa qı "K" tepiya/sonra yena degış beno. Yane eqı herfa qı "K" tepiya yena Kalına (Kalın sesli) se vengê "K" ferqıno, eqı herfa qı "K" tepiya yena herfa bari(İnce Sesli)...No durum zwenê ma dı 2 ferqın herfona hal beno. Yanê ma dı şıma ji zonê qı vengê "K" u "Q" zaf jubini/yewbini moneno...

Nıka ombazo ju/yew cadı pêrs ke qı; Sevê "mektep/okul" çı çi standart vo; fıqrê mı gorê vatena mı corini; sevê kelima "mektep/okul"i ezo vono wa "meqtev" standart vo.. Ha, na aradı beki şıma vonê na kelima eslê cı érebi yo..érebidı vuni/huni niya..Na meseladı ji fıqrê mı; Şıma ji zonê qı hêç yew zwen tom safi niyo, heme/her zwen zwenonê cirono ra, qulturonê cirono ra, heyatê dini ra, mesevonê xo ra çimi gırovto. Yane zwenê ma Farski ra, Erebi ra, Tırki ra, Kurdi ra, Armanki/Ermenici ra, dinê İslomi ra, Elevi ye ra, Şafiye ra, Henifiye ra, Zerdeştê ra ya ji başka itiqato ra mutlaka çimi gırowto. Hemo çıxa başke çimi ra çimi biyê ro biyê ro hergu/heme/her zwendı zwenonê bini ra çiyo ferqın mutlaka esto. Yanê qareqterê hergu/heme/her zwen ferqıno. Yane gramerê her zweni ferqıno, qeydê her zweni ferqıno..

Mae qı zwenê xo ser gırweyemı gereq dıha diqat bıqımı wextê qı nusemı, qalo/qesey qemı dıha diqat bqımı.

Bımanê weşiya...--Peropiya 14:49, 27 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Bıra, ez fehm nêkenan tı çıra wazenay "meqtev" standard bıbo. "Mekteb" esılêro (daha esılo), yani çayê (qey) ma "meqtev"i bıgêrime? Bê argumanan kes nêşikino (nêşkeno, nêşeno) standardan vırazo. Tı nıka vanay, "meqtev" bo, o bin yeno vano "mektev", o bin zi "mekteb". Ma wına senên yew neticey rê reşenime? Aye ra zaf muhimo ke ma belgeyanê tarixan niya bıdime. --Dersimıc 15:29, 27 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

Arkadaşlar kusuruma bakmayın konuyu kısa zamanda daha kolay anlatabilmek için Türkçe yazacağım..Öncelikle teşekürler sayın Dersimic bıra,

Arkadaşlar biliyorsunuz dilimizin Latince harfleri ile yazılı hale gelmesi 1980'li yıllar ve bildiğimiz ilk yazılı eserler 1900'lü yıllarda yazılan Arap harfleri ile yazılan Mevlidlerdir. Birincisi yanlış hatırlamıyorsam Mele Exmede Xasi tarafından yazılan Mevliddir..Bunlara ulaşma şansım olmadı... Bir de dilimizin köken olarak Avesta diline/Avestçeye dayandığı söyleniyor. Buna da ulaşma şansım yok..Ancak mutlaka yararlanılması taraftarıyım. Ama bir de bulunduğumuz zaman gerçeği var yani yaşayan Zazaca. Gerçekçi olmak zorundayız. Bir dil durduk yerde ortaya çıkmaz.Yani dil bir süreçtir. Burada birincisi kaynak-anadil vardır diğer dillere, dil grubuna kaynaklık eden...Bu gün Avestçe gibi konuşulmayan Latince dili İngilizce gibi, İtalyanca gibi, Latin Amerika dilleri gibi dünyanın bir çok dilinin kaynak dilidir. Arapça ordadoğudaki bir çok dilin kaynak dilidir, İbranice bir çok dilin kaynak dilidir. Avestçe de Farsça, Belucice, Shabakça, Zazaca, Kürtçe gibi bir çok dilin kaynak dilidir ortadoğu coğrafyasında..Avestçenin çıkış yeri bildiğimiz gibi Mezopotamya İran bölgesidir. Kanaatimce en orjanal halde bu İrani diller burada konuşulur. Çünkü daha henüz başka etkenlerin etkisine en az girmiştir. Ha bu bölgede bile olsa biliyorsunuz. İran medeniyeti de tarihte değişikliklere uğramıştır. Şöyle Zerdüştlükten İslama geçmiş. İslamın dili de Arapçadır biliyorsunuz. Bundan dolayı her medeniyette olduğu gibi islam medeniyeti de gittiği yerde oranın kültürüne ve diline de etki etmiştir. Bu hristiyanlık da olsaydı aynı olurdu. Yani hristiyan olsaydık bu gün dilimizde daha çok latince kökenli sözcükler bulacaktık. Dilimizin islamiyetle ilgili durumu böyle. Bir de dilimizin komşu dil ve medeniyetler karşısındaki veya yanındaki durumu var. Şimdi asırlardan beridir Türk hakimiyetinde yaşayanlar olarak dilimizin Türkçeden etkilenmemesi düşünülemez, aynı şekilde değişik yörelerde yanyana yaşadığımız, komşu bulunduğumuz Kürtlerin Kürtçesinden, Ermenilerin Ermenicesinen etkilenmememiz düşünülebilir mi?...

Aynı durum diğer diller içinde geçerlidir. Mesela İngilizce, Almanca, Fransızca, İtalyanca, Arapça, Türkçe, Kürtçe bu dillerde aynı şekilde bu süreci yaşamışlardır ve etkilenmişlerdir çeşitli etkenlerden.

Bu saydıklarım dilimizin içinde bulunduğu gerçekler. Ama ne kadar etkilenme olsa da bir dilin kendine has karekteristik özellikleri vardır. Ne bileyim sözcüklerin ek alma şekilleri gibi, cümle kuruluşları gibi, öznenin yüklemin bulunduğu yerler gibi, kelimelerdeki ses dönüşümleri gibi, soru cümlelerinin kuruluşu veya soru takıları olup olmaması gibi farklı özellikleri vardır her dilin kendine özgü.

Şimdi asıl konumuz kelimelerin standartlaştırılması olduğuna göre bu konudaki yaklaşımım şu: Bir kere prensip olarak dilimizi koruma, yaşatma ve ilerletme açısından bilerek sözcükleri eğer bir sözcüğün herhangi bir yörede orjanal zazaca ve Kürtçe, Türkçe, Arapça ve Ermeniceden ayrılan bir kullanımı varsa kökenlerine bakmaksızın o kullanılmalı. İkincisi de eğer bir sözcük mesela "kitap" gibi mesela Arapça kökenli ve de Türkçe ve de Kürtçede ve Zazacanın bazı yörelerinde Arapçadaki gibi kullanılıyorsa bu durumda bu saydığım dillere en uzak kullanım tercih edilmeli varsa/uyuyorsa Zazaca alfabedeki uygun sesle/harfle kullanılmalı..Mesela bu kitap sözcüğü Kürtçede ve bazı zaza yörelerinde "kitab" şeklinde kullanılıyor belki kökendeki arapçaya uyuyor ama zazaca için bir farklılık arz etmiyor. Mesela bizim şivede biz bu "kitap" sözcüğünü "qıtav" şeklinde kullanıyoruz. Bu bana göre doğru çünkü hem yazılış olarak hem de seslendirme olarak ne Kürtçeye ne de Türkçeye benziyor. Benim için "Kitap" sözcüğünün orjanal zazacası"qıtav"dır.

Dersimic arkadaşın sorduğu "Mektep/Mektev" sözcüğünün durumu da öyle yani. Burada da bence bizim kullandığımız şekildeki "meqtev" sözcüğü orjinal zazaca kullanımıdır. Ha bu arada "orjanil zazaca"dan kastettiğim şey. Zazacaya özgü, Zazacaya has olan kullanım yani tarihsel kökeni değildir. Bu açıdan bakınca da her şeyi özellikle Zazaca açısından tarihsel olarak açıklayamayız. Çünkü Zazaca bildiğiniz gibi yazım diline geçeli çok olmadı. Maalesef ki Zazaca ile ilgili tarihsel fazlaca kaynağımız yok. O yüzden yüzyıllardır belki binlerce yıldır sözlü olarak kuşaktan kuşağa aktarılan dilimizi ancak yeni yeni standartlaştırmaya çalışıyoruz. Zazalar arasında ortak bir yazım dili oluşturmaya çalışıyoruz. Bu çalışmalar mutlaka gerekli ve ben de buna sonuna kadar tarafım. Ama yukarıda saydığım bir kaç kural ve ilkeye de dikkat de edilmesi gerekiyor. Düşünün ki dilimizi standartlaştırırken farkında olmadan Kürtçeye yakın sözcükleri aldık, Ki bunu Kürtçü Zazalar yani lehçecüler bilerek yapıyorlar yazarken konuşurken özellikle bilerek Kürtçeye yakın sözcükleri seçiyorlar. Benim bu konudaki yaklaşımım kesin ve net. Biz lehçecilerin (Vateciler gibi..) tersine Zazacayaı Zazacaya yakışır şekilde standartlaştırmalıyız. Burada Zazacanın Zazacalaşması ve Zazaların da yeniden Zazalaşması sözkonusu aslında. Lütfen buna dikkat edelim, rica ediyorum. Kendi elimizle Türkleşmiyeceğiz diye Kürtleşmeyelim. Her iki asimilasyona da hayır diyorum. Yani ne Türkleşelim ne de Kürtleşelim. Yeniden Zazalaşalım diyorum...

Sevgi ve saygılar.--Peropiya 16:42, 27 Temuze 2008 (UTC)

your deletions

What do you want to achieve through your stubbornness actually? If you have no productive contributions, so don't hold us from our work. The fact is that you are not powerful and now times not consistent enough to write in this language. You need learn a lot more about the grammatical rules of the Zazaki and its dialects. This is not an insult, but it is the pure truth. Please, accept this for all times.

Your supposed to correct perceived forms do not exist in reality. If we would shorten or omit all Zazaki specific extensions, it would have a devastating consequence on the language and the words were from those of Turkish or Kurdish not be distinguished. Consider it, just by Turkish or Kurdish influence these original Zazaish endings in some areas in the language disappeared. Therefore each of your arguments in the opposite direction is futile. --Mirzali 10:16, 16 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)

Our problem had not been diq or kui yet, until you brought the matter to roll. We together had fought generally from the outset for a place for Zazaki in Wikipedia. It was initially open for all dialects. You have been influenced and guided from discussions in other Zaza forums. None of us sent you really appreciated something malicious. But you sent the worst insults in your private emails to me. But again you felt yourself personally attacked and insulted. Ultimately you reacted emotionally, where you even contacted the people from the Kurdish side to interfere with. Finally when you were abandoned also of those people, you are suddenly alone now.

If you were now really from the southern Zaza region, it would have been no further problem. But you're now times from the central Zaza area. Apart from this, the fact is that you are not powerful of any Zazaki dialect. This is not an insult to you, but it is an established truth. I don’t think you would find any support by speakers of the southern dialect.

Our work (from the Zazaki-Institute) on the standard language of the Zazaki is a result of year-long scientific research. It isn’t an artificially constructed language, as some assume it. Only those, who have little or no knowledge of Zazaki think so. We're very hurt, that now our trouble and work will be questioned and destroyed at once.

Unlike us, the work of the Vate group is not scientific. Apart from the Kurdish spelling, try these people to equal Zazaki at Kurdish, in which they use numerous Kurdish words in their books and magazines, although exist there original Zazaki words.

Now if you look at the matter from the outside, there should be actually five Wikipedias in Zazaki.

- one for Zazaki institute

- one for Vate group

- one for northern dialect of Zazaki

- one for central dialect of Zazaki

- one for southern dialect of Zazaki

And as it seems, this is not technically feasible. Unless you get all this with a general term zza, in which each of the above-mentioned sections would have a separate part. --Mirzali 21:41, 16 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)

Zanış doesn't exist

Bırayo delal,

i have repeat me again.

• zanayış = bilme, biliş
• zanayen / zanayene = bilmek
• zanışi / zanışiye = bilim (science)

So, if you want to delete the -e endings, then is the corret form: Zanışi

Be sılamanê german (Sıcak selamlar ile)

--AliErsoy 13:28, 17 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)

Thanks bra, Zaza Yasar and another quy will help us. Xosere 14:59, 17 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)

I am very happy that he opened an institue. This will be the basis for an real Standardization process, if also Central and Southern Zazas have the same might as Northern Zazas. Then a compormise will be more possible. --AliErsoy 15:06, 18 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)

There is no intention to make a standardization for the short-term; I don't know about the long term. These useless discussions consumes all our energy. We don't want to waste our time. We would like to write in a way that people understand it. It is not hard to be acquainted with variants. Xosere 16:08, 18 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)

In Zazaki there is a phonetical problem. I don't say, that Central Zazas should take words from Northern or Southern. But we should enreach a phonetical Standard, that the communication potentiality will higher. And 85% of the words you did not understand do exist also in the Central and Southern dialect. The problem is, that you don't research about the words which you don't understand and believe, they were exist only in Northern.

And if you understand simple sentences like in the song "nina rina", then you believe, this sentences were in Northern dialect different, while there is 0% difference. I showed to you also, that the song "dilo dlo" from Rencber Eziz has in Northern Dialect only 1% difference.

Also the Vate-Texts they you understand are in the Northern Dialect the same. You can give me texts they you understand, I can translate them to the Northern Dialect.

I can understand all dialects, there are no grammer problems or vocubulary problems. The only problem is the phonetic. This is the reason, why Zazaki-speakers have problems in the communication.

It's not negative, if Northern Zazas take things like "şıma", and Central Zazas things like "amnan".

Also Southern German do spell the "a-"louds as "o" and other louds different. But they accepted the German Writing Standard.

And I know that a Standard doesnt exist in the reality. Therefore:

We should work for a standard, until we create a standard who is accepting from every region.

Windows Vista does exist today, because Mirosoft worked years for this Operating System.

I don't think, that this takes our energy. Its a simple process, we have only to discuss about the phonetical variant of the words. Ity only a thing of acceptness, therefore we need a committee with Northern, Central and Southern Zazas who discuss this matter.

Zazaki Institute and ZazaYasars Institute should start a co-operation and create a committee. --AliErsoy 16:57, 18 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)

Bak bir yazdigim yer dogrumu ??

Zaza yasar

blockwar-editwar etc.

Hello Xosere, I would like to ask You kindly to unblock Your colegues again and to discuss the matter with them civilized, the blocking of each other and then unblocking of one self shows how ridiculous that is. Besides that is not what sysop rights are for, You should know that an abuse of these rights can cause a revoke of them. Please feel free to discuss at Meta: m:Requests for comments if You wish to do this in an neutral environment.

Also, please don't translate the interface (MediaWiki-messages) here but only globally on betawiki:.

Thanks, best regards, --birdy geimfyglið _{(:> )=|} 15:35, 17 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)

I'll unblock them. We have a major problem here. We need help from the language committee to solve our problem. It is just a basic "wikimedia language policy" issue, but we couldn't get any help so far. You know this is diq.wikipedia; however, some users are using a different dialect here. We created a discussion page for that matter, and I sent several emails to the committee to make a decision about this issue. However, there have been no response so far. Here is the discussion page created for this matter: m:Requests for comments/Zazaki wikipedia --Xosere 15:49, 17 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)

You can see now that they are just changing writings written in diq. This is simply against a very simple rule language policy rule Meta:Language proposal policy. --Xosere 15:54, 17 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I understand that there seems to be a major problem, however I would like to ask all of You to stop the editwars here and first talk about that matter, hopefully there will be a solution to the problem, maybe even as You said, another wikipedia for the other dialect is needed. But please try to solve the matter peacefully, I believe You are all interested in writing an encyclopedia in Your language, but that should not end in personal fights.

Unfortunately I am not an expert in linguistics and the one I usually consult in these matters is on holidays :(

The language committee usually only decides for not yet existing wikipediae, but I think they will help if You consult them for their advice.

Thanks, best regards, --birdy geimfyglið _{(:> )=|} 16:00, 17 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)

I agree we should stop edit wars. I created a discussion page to discuss the issue two months ago: Wikipedia:Portalê cemaeti/Other issues. Unfortunetely, my two other colleagues: Asmen and Mirzali didn't even bother to respond. I told them many times that if you want to use kiu dialect, you should have a separate wikipedia. They don't even want that. They want to use diq.wiki for their dialect. I don't understand how this will work because they are simply erasing diq writings. It doesn't make any sense to me to erase writings in diq dialect in diq.wikipedia. Xosere 16:08, 17 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)

Sılam

Sılam bıra, mı Wikipediya Tırki de yew nuştey enteresani nuşt, seyr ke:

http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Türkçe#.C3.96zt.C3.BCrk.C3.A7e_zannedilen_yabanc.C4.B1_k.C3.B6kenli_s.C3.B6zc.C3.BCkler

Tı eney nuştey sero se fıkır kenay? ;) --AliErsoy 20:19, 28 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)

Ti zaf hol gure kerd bra. Çekuyê "çoş"i zi Sogdianki ra yen. Bun eney link: http://www.nisanyansozluk.com/search.asp?w=co%FEmak&x=19&y=8

Zaf enteresan, mı tiya qeyd kerd, sıpas kenan:

http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Türkçe#.C3.96zt.C3.BCrk.C3.A7e_zannedilen_yabanc.C4.B1_k.C3.B6kenli_s.C3.B6zc.C3.BCkler --AliErsoy 16:20, 29 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)

Roşanê Remezani

Roşanê to mıbarek bo bıra! Ino roşan qewmê ma rê, hometı rê haşti, canweşi, rındi u roşti biaro. --Mirzali 12:39, 30 Keşkelun 2008 (UTC)

Yew pers

Hi again, i have a question. What is in your dialect:

• Turkish: yara
• Turkish: yaralı

Thank you very much. --AliErsoy 14:13, 5 Tişrino Verên 2008 (UTC)

In my dialect we have "bır" for "scar" or "cut" and also "yara" itself. For "wounded" we have "brindar" which is a loanword from Kurdish. I don't know any other variant. You might better to ask to ZazaYasar. --Xosere 19:29, 6 Tişrino Verên 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I think also, that "bırin" and "bırindar" are kurdish loanwords. In Northern we use "dırbete" = yara, dırbetın = yaralı.

Also in Southern does exist "dırbet", see Faruk Iremts "Zazaki - Swedki" dictionary:

http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zazaki-Swêdki_(İsveçki)

Dırbet (southern zazaki) = sår (swedish)

Dırbetın (southern zazaki) = sårad (swedish)

But also in the southern dialect does exist the "bırin" from Kurdish. --AliErsoy 20:02, 6 Tişrino Verên 2008 (UTC)

---

Dırûd (Selam), mı to rê yew e-mail nuşt, be dırûdane german. --AliErsoy 15:52, 11 Tişrino Verên 2008 (UTC)

Mı to rê cewab da. --AliErsoy 16:56, 11 Tişrino Verên 2008 (UTC)--AliErsoy 16:56, 11 Tişrino Verên 2008 (UTC)

vên- for see does also exist in the Central / Southern dialect

See the original version of the article "Destanê Gılgamışi" which you added:

http://diq.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Destan%C3%AA_G%C4%B1lgam%C4%B1%C5%9Fi&oldid=679

şinû geyrenû ge çareyî mergî veynû = Gidiyor ki ölümün çaresini görsün / bulsun

• in Zazaki there is using the verb "see" for "find", there is no an own word for "bulmak", also in Kurdish there is using "see"

http://legerin.ferheng.org/search.php?query=bulmak&lang=kurd2turk&Submit=L%C3%AAger%C3%AEn

With "veynu" he means "vênu", because this "ê" loud sounds similiar to "ey".

And this Author is a Central or Southern Zaza. So this variant vên- does also exist in the diq-dialect. Yes, the most don't use this in Southern, but the most people does also not use "vewr" for "snow" and use instead of this "vor".

The most do use also "bıdin" for turkish "verin" (give!), but Standard is "bıdên", because -ên is the most original variant and therefore it is Standard. We may not make exceptions.

New Persian changed generally the ê-louds to i, some examples:

• Middle Persian: -ēm, New Persian: -îm, meaning: personal ending for the pronome mâ = we
  
• Middle Persian: vên, New Persian: bîn, meaning: steme for "see"
  
• Middle Persian: êran, New Persian: îran, meaning: the name of the country "iran"
  
• Middle Persian: asêm, New Persian: sîm, meaning: silver
  
• Middle Persian: angpên, New Persian: angbîn, meaning: honey
  
• Middle Persian: nêm, New Persian: nîm, meaning: half
  
• Middle Persian: spêt, New Persian: sifid, meaning: white

If you don't believe to Paul Horn, you can see also in Nisanyan that "bîn" was in Middle Persian "vên" and in Avesta "vaēna" (In Zaza Alphabet: veêne):

http://www.nisanyansozluk.com/search.asp?w=bedbin

Or here a source for "silver":

http://www.nisanyansozluk.com/search.asp?w=sim&x=0&y=0

There are more words with ê -> î changing, i will research more about this in Paul Horn. Beside of the examples on the top we can see in Zazaki other ê -> i changes:

• asmên > asmin, meaning: sky
  
• engmên > engmin, egmên > egmin, meaning: honey
  
• ceni > cêni > cini, meaning: woman
  
• meyman > mêman > miyemon, meaning: guest
  
• bê > bi, meaning: without
  
• rê > ri, meaning: to
  
• nême > nim, meaning: half
  
• sıpê > sıpi, meaning: white
  
• bıgêro > bıgiro, meaning in turkish: alsın
  
• ê > i, meaning in turkish: onlar
  
• şımayê > şımayi, meaning in turkish: sizsiniz
  
• mı vatên > mı vatin, meaning in turkish: ben diyordum
  
• nêweş > niweş, meaning: ill

For this all examples i can show you historic sources, in all examples here are the ê-louds the most original louds.

Because the todays persians, kurds and caspians do use for "see" the i-loud, this doeant mean, that "i" were more right.

If we make everytime exceptions, then we create a new chaous. We have the historic iranic and indic sources, so we should use them, to have an unify langauge which accept everybody. Thanks of my lists also ZazaYasar did accept some words of the other dialects, because of the historic facts, examples:

He use now words like:

• bıkero (instead of bıkır), amo (instead of umu), roc (instead of ruec), newe (instead of newi), nêveciyena (instead of nivıciyena), zaf (instead of zuf), ıno nımuune beso (instead of "ın nimune besu"), raşt kerin (instead of raşt kırin), fahm (instead of fuhm, all comes from the variant: fehm)...

If we don't make this work, which other will make it? Do you believe, that our Zazas will work for a standard? They even don't accept the dialect of the other village. If we don't create a standard then Zazaki will be die. The people they want write in their own dialect, they should it. But Zazaki need also a standard, that it can exist in this world.

Should we wait further?? That Koyo Berz and Faruk Iremet do create after 40 years where Zazaki became die a standard? Nobody except of Asmen and Mirzali will make anything. Koyo Berz has even not an interest of an unify alphabet.

And the people don't accept Asmens Standard because of things like the -e endings and things like "ki" (also).

Now i deleted also the feminine e-endings in the standard-pages, look as example here:

http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Zazakiyê_Wikipediyao_Standard/Name

It will be all good, if we unite use. With historic facts we will decide the people, believe to me. And we can also print books in the future. But without a work and basis we will don't enreach anything and the turks will be win. --AliErsoy 18:56, 11 Tişrino Verên 2008 (UTC)

I don't know why you don't understand. I told you many times that if you want to make a standard zazaki, this is the wrong place. I support standardization, but this is just not the place to do it. You really want to standardize the language, I think you have to spend yor life for this cause. I just don't want to waste my time here that is not relevant to the purpose of Wikipedia. --Xosere 06:54, 12 Tişrino Verên 2008 (UTC)

And where is the right place? Should we found an institute? Even our old Zazaists don't want to work together. Why this Zazaists not be able to create a common standard, but the Vate-People and Kurdists are able? Why Faruk Iremet, Koyo Berz, ZazaYasar, Asmen and Mirzali can not unite themselve? There will be not a standard except of the Standard of the Zazaki Institute. Because this people don't see how important a standard is (even Asmên does support the chaos in Zazaki). And you self see the historic facts, so there is not a reason to wait for a standard which comes from the sky to the earth.

Without a Standard Zazaki remains a village langauge and this chaous in Zazaki will remain.

You will the first who will shout because the people of Zaza TV do use the Northern dialect and not a standard (because this people need historic sources to believe that some variants are more original).

We have the historic facts and we work linguistic. If "vên" is the most original variant, then also other people can not change this fact, do you hope, that anybody will evidence that "vin" is more right? Then I can hope, that somebody comes and say "sıma" without "ş" from Northern were more right. I showed you, that "vên" also exist in Central / Southern, so why you against this word. Do you have a peer pressure because of some caspians, persians and kurds? Then we can also take "xw", that they love us.

You remember me to the Vatecis, they also favor some varianst because of Kurmanci and Sorani, while this are not original. And you favor variants because your loved persians. "vên" is completly understandable, also we took in other words variants with "ê" instead of "i". As in engmên instead of engmin etc. etc.

Yes, we have to spend our life for Zazaki, because it will be die from day to day.

And you self was for this project in Wikipedia, and its anyway only a Standard for Wikipedia, its a commendation for people they want a unify language. And this people are ready to take this words.

But after some Users here abased you, you gived up. You don't have work, i can put the examples and you can proof them if you have time. Then we can print in the future a book. With historic facts we can convince people at the best. --AliErsoy 08:29, 12 Tişrino Verên 2008 (UTC)

Before pedaling all these stuff about the standard language, I think you should answer these questions: Why we need a standard language? If we need it, how it should be created, who should create it, and where it should be created? Will people accept this standard? And most importantly is Wikipedia is a good place to this thing? I think its a horrible place to this thing. If we had already established standard language like Vate, I would accept it. But it doesn't exist. You are a young person and feel very passionate right now, but you should be wise too and use your time efficiently, like going to college and start your project from there cause this is a serious project. Xosere 17:34, 1 Tişrino Peyên 2008 (UTC)

dispute about competence

What are you actually trying to do, for God's sake? You have destroyed everything with your needy Zazaki knowledge. We now know that you are against the female -e suffix in nouns. But who has told you that this also should be omitted in the conjugation of verbs and else where in other words? Learn once the grammar of the Zazaki! That you can’t compare with your simple copies on the etymology from foreign sources. You will not also continue with bitching, incivility and violence. You know exactly what I mean by that, so I don’t go here on the details. By the way, where are your so-dear friends who would help you?

If you missed it, here once again: It is outrageous to deface existing articles. Who excludes the -e endings, he/she should even write his/her own articles. It’s free to each one here to write on his own dialect, but please don’t deface existing articles. The only change can only be on the grammar and spelling in accordance with the dialect in which the article is written.

In addition, we had repeatedly discussed if the e-ending would omitted from words, that’s changing the sex of these words. Accordingly, should also be changed all other extensions of the words in question. Otherwise it will bring us much trouble, as it is already occurred through some changes. It costs a lot of work and effort to correct these errors.

I think you make everything from the defiant, I have no other statement about your behavior. Please, read here and there. --Mirzali 09:02, 27 Tişrino Verên 2008 (UTC)

Why do you think that your dialect is right, others are wrong? In my dialect we don't have -e endings at the end of verbs. I give you an example from ZazaYasar: "İlm sera zaf xebitiya u seyahat kerd." As you see we don't have -e at the end. Since this is diq.wikipedia, there is nothing wrong about this. I agree with you that you should be able to write -e endings, but it should be only in kiu.wikipedia. Otherwise, people are confused. Xosere 00:40, 28 Tişrino Verên 2008 (UTC)

Have I ever claimed that other dialects were wrong?

Pass it on what times you change which text. You're simply incompetent to write in any dialect. This is not an insult, but is simply a fact. Learn the grammar just right.

With a single sentence as an example, you can not justify yourself. Your example sentence is also in the northern dialect almost the same. "İlm sera zaf xebitiya u seyahat kerd." = "ilm sero zaf guriya u seyahet kerd."

Look, don’t pervert the cause unnecessary and give you trouble to learn. There is not only a form in the past, because there are other forms, too. See kerdene!

Your statement about DIQ and KIU is boring and make the people sick gradually. This is sort of outdated and is simply ridiculous. You just chase the people with your separation. Come on your horizon and you will eventually grow up. --Mirzali 09:30, 28 Tişrino Verên 2008 (UTC)

Xosere, here you show again your needy knowledge about Zazaki, as in hundred other cases, examples:

- You believed that Vate don't use -e endings in the standard

- You believed that the song Rina Nina with his simple words and sentences were in the Dersim-Dialect different

- You believe still that simple words you understand are in Northern different. And you also didn't understood simple words from Southern/Central-Dialect-words and thought the problem were the Northern dialect.

And say me where are feminine words in the sentence of ZazaYasar? Where?? As Mirzali said the sentence is in Northern the same.

Ask ZazaYasar what is "ensiklopediya xosere" in his dialect. --AliErsoy 14:54, 28 Tişrino Verên 2008 (UTC)

PS: If you don't want the -e endings, then you must use the Southern/Central -ı-ending which is devirated from Northern -e, that the sentence "ensiklopediya hosere" becomes right :D

• Northern: masculine: -i, feminine: -e
• South/Central: masculine -i, feminine: -ı

Look also to: http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fekanê_Zazaki_de_vuriyayışê_vengan#e_.2F_.C4.B1
And look also to: http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What's_going_to_be_the_future_of_diq.wikipedia#The_delevoping_of_the_feminine_-e_ending

--AliErsoy 17:41, 28 Tişrino Verên 2008 (UTC)

Why you don't accept -vên-?

Bıra Hoser, what is the problem in -vên-, i showed you hundred sources that -vên- is the most original variant, also an entry in Nisanyan. So what is the problem? We took also in many other words -ê- instead of -i-, why you want make in -vin- an exception? Why you accept things like zama, engmên, asmên etc. but not -vên-? Can you say me whats the problem is?

The sentence bıvênên is in your Dialect bıvinin, so where is the logic that you accept the -ên plural imperativ ending, but not -vên-? I showed you also that -vên- does exist in Central Zazaki, see the Gilgamish original version. Why you support this chaos?

The most Zazas do also not use things like "vewr", "ho" etc. but the most original variants are standards. A Bingöl Zaza can also not understand things like "vano" etc. from Southern/Northern well, so we can not look always to the Bingol Dialect, the only criteria should be the originality.

And don't please come with Indoeuropean, the only important source is Iranian and Indo-Arian. If we go to Indoeuropean, then i can show you that "serm" without "ş" is more right instead of "şerm", while this was in Iranian and Indian always with "ş".

And the PIE-Base of "vên" was anyway "weid" (read: weyd), which was in in Old Persian "vein"-, Avesta "veên", Middle Persian "vên".

Its not an argument to say that all other iranian languages changed it to "i". Its fact that all todays forms like -bin-, -vin- etc. are devirated from the MP form "vên", Sanskrit "ve-d-".

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=vision&searchmode=none

And look also here if you dont believe to me, that -vên- is older, look the Avesta and MP examples:

http://www.nisanyansozluk.com/search.asp?w=bedbin&x=0&y=0

Nobody says that other dialects are false, every dialect has his most original variants. So we should take the most original variants from all dialects. --AliErsoy 16:10, 29 Tişrino Verên 2008 (UTC)

I'm really get annoyed with standard language. I don't want to talk about standard language here. This is not the place. --Xosere 14:43, 30 Tişrino Verên 2008 (UTC)

It's your personally decision which words are using in the Wiki-Interface. So why you accept all other words with "ê", they are in your dialect with "i", but not -vên-?

I changed the text many times to "bıvênên" but you restored always -vin-, why Bıra? I don't understand this Regionalism. --

The opinion of the Regionalists of Bingol, Dersim etc. are not important. If we go to the opinion of this people, then we must save all 999 loud-variants of the same word. They have not any linguistic knowledge, my father who use "ez von" for "i say" even not accept "ez vanan" (ez va-n-an).

But we know, that the steme "va-" comes from parthian vâj, Avesta: vâç and -an from Parthian/Middle Persian: -ân, Sanskrit / Avesta / Old Persian: -āni.

This what you make is populism, this stupid regionalists of Bingol do affect you with their 0% knowledge. This is not your real opinion. This slogan "bisey anlasilmiyor" do use also always our stupid Dersimists.

You self said "belli olan seyler zaten kullanilsin", so its clearly that -vên- is the most old variant. You accept all other most original variants, but because of this Regionalists of the Stone Age you don't accept -vên-.

This is the problem of us Zazas, we make us artifical problems, therefore we are such splitten. --AliErsoy 16:33, 30 Tişrino Verên 2008 (UTC)

Hopefully I'll send you a detailed answer this weekend. Xosere 00:05, 31 Tişrino Verên 2008 (UTC)

I understand your thinkness, you think that bıvênên is in the text form not understandable.

But Pronounce it loud: bıvinên and bıvênên, there is almost not a difference in the pronouncing.

Only the text form is different, but this problem does exist in many other standard words.

Do you believe that a Stone Age Regionalist of Dersim or Bingol who use "zon" or "zun" can understand zıwan in the text form before he learn this? I say: never. Only for us is this not a problem because we learned many years before what is zıwan. And "zıwan" has in the text form a bigger difference to "zun / zon" than bıvênen to bıvinen. --AliErsoy 13:10, 31 Tişrino Verên 2008 (UTC)

An own Zazaki word for "Encyclopedia"

Hi Bıra, I have an Idea, as we know there was createn many neologisms in Zazaki as:

• Qısebend = Sözlük
• Wenabend = Kitap
• Zanışiye = Bilim
• Peybend, Verbend = Sonek, Önek

So why we should not create an own word for Encyclopedia, my idea were:

• Zanıbend = Turkish: Ansiklopedi, Kurdish: Ensiklopedi

What do you think about this idea?

So "Özgür Ansiklopedi" were:

• Zanıbendo Hoser (eril yalın)

If all Zazaists took things like Qısebend, then its not a problem to learn also this. We learned also from the Turks from Istanbul and Ankara, they killed our ancestors, the word "Ansiklopedi".

And its makes sense, becaue with "bend" one means in this cases analogous the collection of information.

If there are many other neologisms, why not also for "Encyclopedia"?

The word "Encyclopedia" comes from greek: enkyklios paideia, it means: "enkýklios" = circular, paideía =education, accumulation, cultivation, literacy, so in german: bildung.

Its were a good stepte for a independent Zazaki, far from Kurdish and Turkish.

If Zazaki gets more independent, the people give to Zazaki more price.

We should be brave and make this for the future and existing of Zazaki. Because of the similiraty of Zazaki to Turkish and Kurdish the people don't give to Zazaki price. --AliErsoy 16:28, 29 Tişrino Verên 2008 (UTC)

Prototype of the Logo

• Advantage: The discussion about the e-ending in "hoser" ends, because "zanıbend" is masculine and the form is then rectus. --AliErsoy 17:38, 29 Tişrino Verên 2008 (UTC)

It is a interesting idea, but the word "encyclopedia" has become a global word. Every language is using it. I think we don't need to create a new word. --Xosere 14:41, 30 Tişrino Verên 2008 (UTC)

Iranian x > Turkish k

Hi, i developed my list of Iranian x > Turkish k:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer_Diskussion:Shado#2

--AliErsoy 15:54, 31 Tişrino Verên 2008 (UTC)

I puted now again a new example: turkish: kendi "self", look also to here:

http://northerniraq.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3334&p=41088

--AliErsoy 17:10, 31 Tişrino Verên 2008 (UTC)

i found something other interesant, put here "olmak":

http://www.tdk.org.tr/lehceler/Default.aspx

then look what is "olmak" in the other turkic languages. :D

and look to the tables at the bottom here:

http://northerniraq.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2243

--AliErsoy 19:40, 31 Tişrino Verên 2008 (UTC)

Let me ask you a question then. Do you think Zazaki word for salt "sol" comes from PIE "*sal-"? Xosere 17:23, 1 Tişrino Peyên 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but Iranian changed this "s" like Greek to "h" i think, as we in Kurdish see: xwê = salt, which is accordting to Paul Horn in relation with Sanskrit "svâda", from which also iranic "xwasten" (to want) comes. But i'm not sure if "salt" and Sanskrit "svâda" (Sanskrit and Old Iranian Meaning: want, like, flavour") are really in relation.

Maybe "sol", "solı" (some Southern Dialects)), "sole" (Northern) in Zazaki can be a loanword from an other indoeuropean langauge. I thought first, from Armenian, but the Armenian do use for "salt": ağ.

And the greeks do use "hals". And i don't know other indoeuropean people which were in contact with Zazas. So probably Zazaki received this proto-indoeuropean word and its then not a loanword. --AliErsoy 10:23, 2 Tişrino Peyên 2008 (UTC)

The kurdification of Vate:

Look to here:

http://www.forum-prinz.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?forum_name=1229&message_number=839&pid=

If you know more examples, then please write to me, thanks.

Plural in Zazaki

I write this in Turkish, that you learn it better:

Zazacada çoğul iki yöntemle kurulur, İzafeli hal var ve İzafesiz. İzafe olmadığında çoğul farklı kurulur.

Örnek:

• Hirê Pelikan-i < Üç Pelikan-lar < 1. Hal, yalın rectus
• Hirê Pelikan-an < Üç Pelikan-ları < 2. Hal, büküm obliquus
• Hirê Pelikan-an rê < Üç Pelikan-lara < 2. Hal, büküm obliquus

• Dı merdum-i < İki adamlar < 1. Hal, yalın rectus <
• Ez dı merdum-an vênenan < Ben iki adamlar(ı) görüyorum < 2. Hal, büküm obliquus
• Ez dı merdum-an ra gênan < Ben iki adamlardan alıyorum < 2. Hal, büküm obliquus

• NOT: Zazacada "adamlar görüyorum" ve "adamları görüyorum" arasında fark yok. Yani bir fiil bir laf ile bağlanınca hep ikinci hal gelir.

Şimdi İzafeli hale gelelim:

• Bıra-yê merdum-i = Adamların kardeşi, < 1. Hal, yalın çoğul rectus
• Bıra-yê merdum-an = Adamların kardeşleri < 1. Hal, yalın çoğul rectus

• Bıra-yanê merdum-an = Adamların kardeşini < 2. Hal, büküm çoğul rectus
• Bıra-yanê merdum-an = Adamların kardeşlerini < 2. Hal, büküm çoğul rectus

Biliyorum, İzafedeki çoğul biraz mantıksız, ama bu Zazacanının bütün lehçelerinde böyledir.

İzafe gelmeyen haldeki -i'yi ise lütfen Eril Obliquus "i" ekininle karıştırma, hiç bir alakası yok.

İzafe gelmediğinde yalında "kardeşler" diyorsan, mesela:

• Kardeşler gidiyorlar < Bıray (Bıra + i > Bıray) şonê

diyicen. Yukarda sana gösterdim nezaman "an"ın geldiğini.

Bide Zazacada vokatif var, mesela bağrınca:

• Bırayo! = Kardeş!, Bırayêne! = Kardeşler!
• Wayê! = Abla!, Wayêne! = Ablalar!

Bu Merkez ve Güneyde de aynen böyle, "abla!" bağrınca "wayê!" denilir. --AliErsoy 14:56, 7 Tişrino Peyên 2008 (UTC)

Enough is enough

How long do you want to continue still your childish despite reaction? Have you ever learned anything in more than two years about Zazaki?

One should look at your archive, and he/she would be equal to determine what you already have contributed. You just side stuff back and forth. And now you shorten words into existing, more advanced texts.

Are you holding all the other people for fools? In which you each time repeat, that it supposedly would be DIQ-Wikipedia? It is probably your dialect, namely Central Zazaish and not South Zazaish. I would also say none of the dialects is wrong as long as they are correct in their spelling and grammar.

What you still don’t understand is not to change existing texts in their original style. You are free to write your own new texts. But in the sense you're probably not in a position, because you're not powerful in any dialect of Zazaish. This now is a certain fact. We need competent people in such a serious project.

Because of a person like you who is just full of hatred and fomenting intolerance, we can’t extend our language and divide our nation. Expand your horizons and you eventually will grow up. --Mirzali 13:38, 11 Tişrino Peyên 2008 (UTC)

est- vs. çıni-

est- and çıni- don’t function as the Turkish var and yok. Those particles are related to the verb biyayiş / biyaene (to be) and are defined in a positive (est-) and negative (çıni-) sense. Hence, these words are always appended by the copula (part of the predicate of biyayiş / biyaene) depending on the person.

Est-ı-biyayış / est-biyaene

1. existent, present, available expressed by "there is / there are":

• yew bacar esto = there is a city : masculine
• yew qeza esta = there is a county : feminine
• heşt qezey estê / hirê bacari estê = there are eight counties / there are three cities : plural

2. following possessed subjects, in the sense of "to have":

• kıtabê mı esto = I have a book : masculine
• qelema mı esta = I have a pencil : feminine
• kıtabê mı estê / qelemê mı estê = I have (some) books / I have (some) pencils : plural

Çı-ni-biyayış / çi-nê-biyaene

1. non-existent, absent, not available expressed by "there is none / there are no":

• (yew) bacar çıniyo = there is none city : masculine
• (yew) qeza çıniya = there is none county : feminine
• … qezey çıniyê / … bacari çıniyê = there are no counties / there are no cities : plural

2. following non-possessed subjects in the sense of "to have not":

• kıtabê mı çıniyo = I have none book : masculine
• qelema mı çıniya = I have none pencil : feminine
• kıtabê mı çıniyê / qelemê mı çıniyê = I have no books / I have no pencils : plural

--Mirzali 23:36, 11 Tişrino Peyên 2008 (UTC)

-en- or -yen-

-en- or -yen- (after vowel endings) is the present suffix in Zazaki. To this suffix must always follow personnel suffixes depending on the person.

present indicative of vurıyayiş / vuriyaene

to change
ez vuriyenan
tı vuriyenay
o vuriyeno
a vuriyena
ma vuriyenime
şıma vuriyenê
ê vuriyenê

present indicative of varayiş / varaene

to rain/snow/hail
- -
- -
o vareno
a varena
- -
- -
ê varenê

present indicative of ronıştış / roniştene

to sit; to live /reside I. form	to sit; to live /reside II. form
ez nişenan ro	ez ronışenan
tı nişenay ro	tı ronışenay
o nişeno ro	o ronışeno
a nişena ro	a ronışena
ma nişenime ro	ma ronışenime
şıma nişenê ro	şıma ronışenê
ê nişenê ro	ê ronışenê

• By the way, ruşen- a variant of roşen- is the present form of rotış / rotene = to sell

--Mirzali 23:36, 11 Tişrino Peyên 2008 (UTC)

Be as fair and take place on the statements. You can’t ignore our effort and work just to prevail your stubborn head. This is not a one-man project. For such a serious project, you have been consistently and competently enough. At first you must study and be able to understand the living Zazaki dialects, before you have dug any dead languages. And with any copies from foreign sources, you can’t continue, because this benefits nobody at the moment. Firstly, we need to save our dialects of extinction.

Why everyone feels personally attacked when it comes to the interpretation of the truth? These are facts and not personal insults. We haven’t yet understood the importance of an encyclopedia fully. Since, it is primarily about objectivity and science. It's not about any personal views.

We still have so much ahead of us. We must expand the existing texts, without to change the dialect writing style and create new texts in all other dialects of Zazaki, too. Let our personal slights and airs aside. Instead, we should work together peacefully and not against each other. --Mirzali 17:03, 12 Tişrino Peyên 2008 (UTC)

Pela Zazaki.de biye rocane (Zazaki.de sayfası güncenlendi)

Thank you Bira, thanks to Asmens tolerance this step became possible. I will speak about Asmen about a text about Zazas, its really necessery, you are totally right. Can you make for me a print-paint-image of the site, that i can see mistakes. Thanks. --AliErsoy 18:56, 13 Tişrino Peyên 2008 (UTC)

I sent you an email with the a printscreen attachment. Xosere 19:08, 13 Tişrino Peyên 2008 (UTC)

For a better future for all iranic people

For a better future for all iranic people i started this project. All begins with an simple idea.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer_Diskussion:Shado#Hochiranische_Sprache

--AliErsoy 19:47, 15 Tişrino Peyên 2008 (UTC)

I don't want to use my time for those things. Our language and people need us, not others. Linguist are already forming a lot of Proto-Iranian words anyway. --Xosere 00:30, 16 Tişrino Peyên 2008 (UTC)

de(r) in Zazaki

Example:

O Çolig dero = He is in Bingöl
Çolig de zehf Zazay estê = There are many Zazas in Bingöl

Its has the same root as english "intern" accourding to Nisanyan, look:

http://www.nisanyansozluk.com/search.asp?w=der+

--AliErsoy 17:25, 26 Tişrino Peyên 2008 (UTC)

According to the etymonline it seems like it: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=intern&searchmode=none

Also English "inter" has the same root. However, the zazaki de/di and der might not be the same word as in Persian "der" because Persian "der" cames before, like in a movie title "Yek Afghani der Tehran." --Xosere 06:50, 27 Tişrino Peyên 2008 (UTC)

Yes, as in Kurdish: Dı Istanbul de = In Istanbul. This is a hard question, why Zazaki de(r) comes after, hmm... And why Kurdish does use "dı...+de".

In Cermik and Dersim-Dialects the "r" comes if personal endings come. Its like mı > after personal ending mın.

Example: Ez keye der-an = Ben evde+yim. But: Istanbul de = Istanbul da. --AliErsoy 16:13, 27 Tişrino Peyên 2008 (UTC)

Mr. İremet's texts

What Mr. İremet and many others still have not understood, is the importance of this project. It is about science and not personal glory. When, especially the texts are wrong drafted in the grammar and the spelling, these should be revised. I have previously discussed with him and finally he has not read it yet and was even insulted.

Well, how should we develop and move forward now? If everyone use his name under any trifle and thus insists on copyrights. That can not be, because that is not in the sense of an encyclopedia. So we do not step further and we would not be inspired from each other. But, please check out the other Wikipedias and take you an example from those. --Mirzali 22:44, 27 Tişrino Peyên 2008 (UTC)

Clerical errors

You're probably totally wacky or what? Now you also support clerical errors. You have already built enough mischief here. So please be omitted. I can no longer see it. And stop to praise yourself. This is a very low character.

Because if some people would be honorable, they would also create an user account and would not hide behind IP numbers. Perhaps they can also upload a photo of themselves. By the way, where is it really your photo? It has been years, we still don’t know who you are and with whom we have to do.

Someone in a sophisticated position should be honest and genuine. He should also be fair and competent. With self-presentation and personal arrogance you get no further in life. A decent man abused not anyone with the worst swear words, but takes place against accusations in good manners.

So did you really hurt me personally. Despite not more, I wish you a happy New Year and hope for good cooperation soon. --Mirzali 10:07, 26 Kanun 2008 (UTC)

Stop changing the writer's article. Xosere 14:12, 26 Kanun 2008 (UTC)

Say me, is it still purely in your head or what? Are you absolutely clear yet? I have nothing changed except the spelling. Where do we get there if everyone don’t consult his own mistakes and even insists to enforce these. If you're in the concept to make it so forth, better you should abandon your sysop position. Because, God knows, you're not competent enough in this language. All others here know it too. That we had so often discussed and there is no reproach but a bitter fact. So you consider it well, what you are doing.

Are you in all still a reasonable man? Who are you anyway? Why don’t you answer to the questions? --Mirzali 15:20, 26 Kanun 2008 (UTC)

I told you many times that this is the diq.wikipedia. You are already violating the rules. Now you are trying to change established-writers' articles composed in diq. Don't touch people's writings. It is not your job to tell people how to write. Xosere 01:30, 27 Kanun 2008 (UTC)

From which ancient century are you actually? If you no longer know, you take the rules as an excuse. You downright abuse them to your favor. So you have not to state me the rules. I know exactly what is lawful. You have flouted with the rules long enough.

Each language has its own spelling. We can not support the mistakes of others and lead them further. Wikipedia is a public work. Nobody can insist on its copyright here. And if the person is doing it, however, he should not contribute better his texts. Who in the world is doing so in other Wikipedias? Why are our people so fussy and ostentatious?

See, how looks the main page of this project thanks you. It looks like someone new who learns to read and write. Do you write other languages just as bad?

As a single person you always want to prevail your stubbornness and you disseminate discrimination among us. It has not to do with DIQ-Wikipedia. Your intentions are simply of personal nature.

Are you actually still clear with your environment? Does anything still go into your thick skull? So stop with your incompetence, you've served enough mischief.

And finally upload a photo of yourself, because everyone wants to know who you are. There are doubts now at your authenticity. Perhaps you're a spy among us. What otherwise can be expected by an alleged Zaza, who is not capable to speak its own dialect or write it properly. --Mirzali 09:13, 27 Kanun 2008 (UTC)

Stop edit war!

Stop this edit war Xosere! Your built evil is gradually enough. You're not powerful in any of the Zazaki dialects. Because of you, we lose time and can not continue. Either you refrain from this childish behavior or you give up your sysop position voluntarily. Otherwise, I will ensure that you leave this project. Everyone has now seen and read enough, how you really are. We can no longer tolerate a separatist like you among us. Your misuse of rules also attracts no more. You have strained our patience long enough. Finally come to reason or there will be negative consequences for you. --Mirzali 02:55, 5 Çele 2009 (UTC)

this is diq.wikipedia. i won't let you guys take the code given to my tongue and use for your personal ambitions. go use the kiu code given to you. THIS IS THE RULE OF WIKIPEDIA.

You will be amazed at what you did like this, where you're still trying to enforce your thick skull. You are abusing the rules just so on! It will, however, still have enormous consequences for you. Waiting is just starting. You ignorant and thankless flail. --Mirzali 04:00, 5 Çele 2009 (UTC)

this kind of language won't help anybody. you need be able to accept rules and the situation. --Xosere 04:08, 5 Çele 2009 (UTC)

The pattern you just say? That is still very innocuous, as opposed to what you have used for a language in your emails to me. You still deny thee purely deeper. This don’t save your unclean conscience certainly. --Mirzali 04:37, 5 Çele 2009 (UTC)

i am a grown up man. i don't prefer using bad language. however, there are times when some people may force you to use that kind of language. i believe it is important to maintain civility as much as one can. Xosere 04:45, 5 Çele 2009 (UTC)

Xosere is right, we should save our Dêsımki language and write in the kiu-Wikipedia. Nobody of the Dimilki-Speakers want a Zaza unify with Dêsımki-Speakers . So we should let this artifical "Zazaism". --AliErsoy 16:53, 5 Çele 2009 (UTC)

Ali Ersoy and Xosere, shut your mouth! I'm filled with your childish bullshit of you! You two don't have the right to decide for a nation; two people cannot force the writers of one language due to personal complexes and generalize some problems. If you don't stop, I will make that matter public among the Zaza intelligentia. Are you able to comprehend that our language is getting lost more and more day by day, our people getting turkized; eho cares about the some religious problems from the Stone Age? We planned to leave a good inheritance for our language. We fell decisions at the beginning. And people who aren't able to be creditable at their language cannot decide how much they understand the dialectal differences. You can't force us the sentences and opinions from young ignorant guys at the chat rooms who have never read a Zazaki periodical or book or spoke with other Zazas. That's not a child play to act with daily changing mood and opinion. I don't wanna be upset because of that shit anymore. So don't spride your foolish thoughts in our unique languge OK? --Asmên, 5.1.2009, 23:02 (CET)

STOP WITH ALL NONSENSE

Xosere (and Ali), DAMN IT, STOP WITH ALL THIS NONSENSE!!! You both, only two people can’t decide for all others with your ignorance and ruin so this project completely.

Even if thousands evidence would be brought, you could not understand it, because you have too little knowledge of linguistics. You both should better play elsewhere or go to dig in the sandbox.

I think it is very damn serious. Your infantile game extends gradually, but right now it's enough for all times. --Mirzali 03:19, 11 Çele 2009 (UTC)

why you use just 15-20 so-called "standard" words, and the rest is your regions variants? you are not interested in a standard language; you are just lying in order to impose your region's variants. even if you were interested in a standard language, this is not the place to do it. this is diq.wikipedia and rules are very clear about this. --Xosere 05:01, 11 Çele 2009 (UTC)

Xosere, ni rocu zaf waxtê mı çino. A roci mı xatırê Egiti ra MSN de to de qesey kerd. Tı tam biyê gêc, aqılê xo sas kerdo. Kes nêvano ke Zazakiyê zımey pêro qebul kerê; qesê standardi ki 15-20 teney niyê. Tı be xo tenya nêşkinê Zazakipedia idare kerê, çımke zanaisê to kemio. Nae qebul ke. Eke tı be na xuya xo dewam kerê, kes/çew phışti/paşti nêdano to. To xatırê xo da waro. Nıka ki wazenê ke projê wikipedia maf kerê. Ma en ver de nia qerar nêgureti bi. Kam uşt ra/werışt, be xo qanuni veti, zorê ma kerd, tepia xo rê heni/otir qerar da? Tı! Qae, ma key koti pia qerar da ke, itya de teyna Zazakiyê veroci nuşino? Sıma be xo şiy hetê Kurdçiyu, inu ra va ke, .kiu bıgêrê xo ser. Tepia sıma be xo texeliyay, vaz biy. Aybo ke tı mordemê de wendoğê, labelê zê qıcu kenê. --Asmên, 11ê Çelê 2009i, 11:57 (CET)

Ali, read first the records of Oskar Mann and Peter Lerch and than let's talk about the e-apocope, OK? --Asmên, 11.1.2009, 13:01 (CET)

Mirzali, we are realistic, and not such dreamers as you. Fact is: There are not any historic evidences, that this -e suffix were exist also in Central and Southern. Why should accept any Central or Southern Zazas thinks like "roce", "weşiye"? Where are the arguments? So see the reality, you destroy with your Reognalism this project. You took things like "ki", which nobody can understand. You want make "awrês" standard, while the Central "argueş", and Southern "ergoş"/"harguş" are 100 times more original. At this point I saw your real face, you ignore always Southern and Central Forms.

If there is a original variant of Northern, you say, originality is important. But at the original variants of southern and central you say "konusma diline özen verilmeli". What double standard is this please? This is alltough rascism!

You take the Southern/Northern-Izafe-System, because of the majortiy. So why you don't accept the feminine -ı ending? Where is the evidence, that "ı" comes from "e"? There were also ı > e changes as in qıse > qese. So with whic argument you will convince people? You can discuss about this matter 100 years, you don't wil enreach anything. So be realistic and accept at issues where are not evidences the using of majority.

And the majority don't add any suffixes to the normal non-izafe nouns, as "weşiye", "roce", "kategoriye", "biyografiye". This is foreign for the most Zazas. --AliErsoy 11:35, 11 Çele 2009 (UTC)

Xosere, mı xatırê Homay sane, kerdışê to endi beso!

I can't answer, because your statements are so naive and childish. But you bring me to the madness. There are probably your 15-20 words that you know in Zazaki. I can give you 20000 (twenty thousand) words list when I wanted. This is no joke and not a bluff. We have a very rich language and this language has the potential. Because of you, we can’t continue for a long time in this project.

When did you ever translate the system messages of this project? Do you have any idea who is doing that? Of course not, because you're just busy with pushing the articles back and forth and to delete single words, which allegedly not fit. But let all the nonsense, you’ve already destroyed enough.

Be finally a grown up, an honorable and above all a sensible man! --Mirzali 20:30, 11 Çele 2009 (UTC)

As long as you talk nonsensically, you cannot communicate with anybody. Xosere 21:01, 11 Çele 2009 (UTC)

I doubt for a long time at your humanity and your ability as a sensible man. You still sink deeper, but you’re not aware of it. The future will show us what you will have on your stubbornness. You're just hiding behind your keyboard and turn the facts as they suit into your rummage. But the divine justice will seek you one day. Be sure, you will be very surprised. --Mirzali 21:47, 11 Çele 2009 (UTC)

Leave off the separation!

It is so typical for your capacity of understanding. You really didn’t understand me. I explain it to you based on a sample. Here, I suppose, for example, the basic word adır fire and extend it with constructed/compound words and phrases. So you can use x-word for any other proceeding.

I have now over 8500 basic, constructed and compound words in Zazaki together, which I extend daily like in this sample. So you can calculate how many words you finally can build. But you need to know the language well.

It is not as easy as make simply copies from foreign sources as you do it, in order to investigate the etymology allegedly. The etymology is important, but what is it of use, as long as you really don’t know your own language (or your own dialect). That I'll try all the time to explain you, but you get it every time in the wrong neck.

By the way, your dialect is central Zazaki for which there is no code. So you abuse DIQ as an excuse. Ethnologue subdivided then the codes according to the religious aspects. The Central Zazaki dialect is in fact so fundamentally different from Southern and Northern Zazaki dialects. So it should be given a separate code for Central Zazaki too. Why don’t you actually apply for a separate code for it, if you operate in any separatism?

Believe me, South Zazas even fewer would want to work with you if they knew that you prefer your dialect on DIQ. So leave off the separation shit, because otherwise you will be the loser.

P.S.: In this sample I have only translated the main words. Anyone with good Zazaki knowledges can certainly understand the other words as well. This list is not exhaustive. There are still missing the reference to the variants of the phrases. Thus the list of the sample would even be longer.

The example is as follows:

adıl n : → adır
adılkan n : → adırgan
adır n : v. adıl Tr. ateş, od Alm. Feuer; Fieber İng. fire; fever

adırcıbiyae n, adırcıbiyaiye m :

adır cı biyaene [adır ben- cı, adır bi cı, adır cıb-], adırcıbiyaene m :

adırcıbiyaiş n :

adırcıkewte n, adırcıkewtiye m

adır cı kewtene [adır kewn- cı, adır kewt cı, adır cıkew-], adırcıkewtene m :

adırcıkewtış n :

adır cı verdaene [adır verdan- cı, adır verda cı, adır cıverd-], adırcıverdaene m :

adırcıverdaiş n :

adırcıverdaoğ n, adırcıverdaoğe m :

adır de mendene [adır de manen-, adır de mend, adır de bıman-], adırdemendene m :

adırdemendış n :

adır dekewtene [adır kewn- de, adır kewt de, adır dekew-], adırdekewtene m :

adırdekewtış n :

adır devıstene [adır vın- de, adır vıst de, adır -vı-], adırdevıstene m :

adırdevıstış n :

adırdevıstoğ n, adırdevıstoğe m :

adır ero ser naene [adır nan- ro ser, adır na ro ser, adır ero ser n-], adırerosernaene m :

adırerosernaiş n :

adırê xo biyaene [adır saynen- we, adır sayna we, adır wesayn-], adırêxobiyaene m :

adırêxobiyaiş n :

adır gırewtene [adır gên-/cên-, adır gırewt, adır bıgêr-/bıcêr-], adırgırewtene m :

adırgırewtış n :

adırgırewtoğ n, adırgırewtoğe m :

adıri gırewtene [adıri gên-/cên-, adıri gırewt, adıri gên-/cên-], adırisernaene m :

adırigırewtış n :

adıri ser naene [nan- adıri ser, na adıri ser, adıri ser n-], adırisernaene m :

adırisernaiş n :

adıri ver amaene [yen- adıri ver, am- adıri ver, -êr- adıri ver], adıriveramaene m :

adıriveramaiş n :

adıri ver şiyaene [son- adıri ver, şi adıri ver, şêr- adıri ver], adıriverşiyaene m :

adıriverşiyaiş n :

adıri vera şiyaene [adıri vera son-, adıri vera şi, adıri vara şêr-], adıriveraşiyaene m :

adıriveraşiyaiş n :

adır kerdene [ken- adır-, kerd- adır, adır ker-], adırkerdene m :

adırkerdış n :

adırcıkewte n, adırcıkewtiye m

adır kewtene [kewn- adır-, kewt- adır, adır kew-], adırkewtene m :

adırkewtış n :

adır miyan kerdene [adır ken- miyan, adır kerd miyan, adır miyan ker-], adırmiyankerdene m :

adırmiyankerdış n :

adırmiyankerdoğ n, adırmiyankerdoğe m :

adır miyan kewtene [adır kewn- miyan, adır kewt miyan, adır miyan kew-], adırmiyankewtış m :

adırmiyankewtış n :

adırmiyankewtoğ n, adırmiyankewtoğe m :

adıro devıste n :

adır pıra naene [adır nan- pıra, adır na pıra, adır pıra n-], adırpıranaene m :

adırpıranaiş n :

adırpıranaoğ n, adırpıranoğe m :

adır pıra nistene [adır nisen- pıra, adır nist pıra, adır pıranis-] adırpıranistene m :

adırpıranistış n :

adır pıra niyaene [adır nin- pıra, adır niya pıra, adır pırani-] adırpıraniyaene m :

adırpıraniyaiş n :

adır u kıle :

adır u şewat :

adır varaene [adır varen-, adır vara, adır -var-], adırvaraene m :

adırvaraiş n :

adır varnaene [adır varn-, adır varna, adır -varn-], adırvarnaene m :

adırvarnaiş n :

adırvarnaoğ n, adırvarnoğe m :

adırverbiyae n, adırverbiyaiye m :

adır ver biyaene [adır ben- ver, adır bi ver, adır ver b-], adırverbiyaene m :

adırverbiyaiş n :

adır ver kerdene [adır ken- ver, adır kerd ver, adır ver ker-], adırverbiyaene m :

adırverkerdış n :

adırverkerdoğ n, adırverkerdoğe m :

adır vêsnaene [adır vêsnen-, adır vêsna, adır -vêsn-], adırvêsnaene m :

adırvêsnaiş n :

adır wekerdene [adır ken- we, adır kerd we, adır weker-], adırwekerdene m :

adırwekerdış n :

adırwekerdoğ n, adırwekerdoğe m :

adır wesaynaene [adır saynen- we, adır sayna we, adır wesayn-], adırwesaynaene m :

adırwesaynaiş n :

ero adıri mendene [manen- ro adıri, mend ro adıri, -man- ro adıri], eroadırimendene m :

eroadırimendış n :

adırca n : hm. adırgan Tr. ateş yakılan yer, ocak Alm. Feuerstelle, Herd İng. fireplace, hearth
adıre m : Tr. bir cilt hastalığı Alm. eine Hautkrankheit İng. a skin desease
adırgan n : v. adılkan, hm. adırca, Tr. ateş yakılan yer, ocak Alm. Feuerstelle, Herd İng. fireplace, hearth
adırge n : Tr. çakmak Alm. Feuerzeug İng. lighter
adırın n, adırıne m : Tr. ateşli Alm. feurig; fiebrig İng. fiery; feverish

adırın biyaene [adırın+copula suffix, bi adırın, adırın b-], adırınbiyaene m :

adırınbiyaiş n :

--Mirzali 16:36, 12 Çele 2009 (UTC)

A little help

Hi! I'm a Hungarian Wikipedia editor, my name is Norbert. I'd like to request something from you. I'm very proud of my village, Ecser, and we have now 90 interwiki translations. Could you make a Zazaki one? You could use the Turkish version or the English. Thank you! hu:User:Eino81

Nuşte is masculine

So the sentence were so right:

No/In nuşte ensiklopedik niyo

Only a tip, that develope your Zazaki knowledge.

--AliErsoy 18:13, 26 Çele 2009 (UTC)

2009 Steward's Request

Dear Mihemed,
Please take a look at this page and leave your vote there,
Thank You --Parthava 04:25, 3 Şıbat 2009 (UTC)

-ıstan is right

The Zazaki and Kurdish transcribition of Old Iranian words is more different than in Persian. Because Persian don't know dump i.

Old Iranian and Arabic words with i- are in Kurdish and Zazaki: ı
Only Words with long î-letter (î, ī) are in Zazaki and Kurdish: i

Also Kurds use -ıstan. Example:

Middle Persian -iş > in Zazaki: ış, in Northern Zazaki: -is, but we took -ış to standard.
Middle Persian: dil > Kurdish: dıl

Arabic: tišrīn > is in Zazaki then: tışrin (like Mirzali took as Standard).

--AliErsoy 16:58, 7 Şıbat 2009 (UTC)

Mistakes of ZazaYasar

Bıra, "ınke" is not original, its only a deformed version of "nıka", which is in Sorani: nûka, in Kurmanci: nıha. Its has the same root as English "now", German "nun". It was in Pahlavi: nûn, in Old Persian: *ek nun em, from which comes the "nûka" form, whic will be in Zazaki "nıka".

And to "no, na" which is also using in Southern dialect:

You say there was a shift from en >. But why in Central using then exist:

ena, eni etc.? If there was an shift then the shift mus be suchwise: en > ne. But such a word doesn't exist.

There are only two options:

Southern and Northern did lost the "e" in "ena, eno" etc.

Or Central dialect did add "e" as grammer feature. But the these en > ne is not right.

--AliErsoy 12:23, 10 Şıbat 2009 (UTC)

ê for plural ending is older than i

For 2. pers. plural, for 3. pers. plur.:

• Northern Zazaki: -i: i keni, sıma keni
• Central Zazaki: -i: i keni, şıma keni
• Southern Zazaki: -ê: ê kenê, şıma kenê

Root: Pahlavi: -ênd, look: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittelpersische_Sprache#Verben

Rests in Conjungtive in many dialects:

ê bıkerên = onlar yapsınlar, şıma bıkerên = siz yapasınız, bıkerên! = yapın

• In relation with Kurdish: -ın, Kurdish: ew kurd ın = onlar kürtlerdir, bıkın! = yapın, hûn dıkın = siz ediyorsunuz

• In relation with New Persian -end: ishan mibinend = onlar görüyorlar.

Zazaki lost in the normal indicative time the "n":

So we say today: ê kenê instead of "ê kenên" and şıma kenê instead of "şıma kenên".

But in conjungtive the "n" can be conserved in the conjungtive and this is the evidence that -ê in indicative comes from Pahlavi -ênd. And that -ê is older than -i.

In Asmens Standard it is using -ên in the conjungtive as in: ê gênê = onlar aliyorlar, ê bıgêrên = onlar alsinlar.

--AliErsoy 11:25, 16 Şıbat 2009 (UTC)

PS: Also in the Vate Standard it is "ê". --AliErsoy 11:31, 16 Şıbat 2009 (UTC)

Pahlavi is not a good language to compare these things. It is just a different language. Xosere 18:01, 16 Şıbat 2009 (UTC)

Wikipediya "Zazaki" de endi kes/çew problem meveco

Bıra Xosere u embazê bini;

• Ma gani qebul bıkerê ke na Wikipediya ê ma hergo/heme Zazauna...Waxto ke ma Wikipediya nê ro / pêra kerdı, destê ma de kodê kiu u diq est biy, zza çinêbiy.. Ma seba qebul dayışê idarey Wikipedia, kodê diq vicna/wêçinıt..Eke zza bıbiyêne, ma o wêçinıtênı...To zi zanen, ma Asmên, Mirzali, Belekvor u embazê bini pheşti dê şıma...
• Nıka to vanay "nê !" na wikipediya yê fekê Zazakiya verociya...Eke vatena to raşta, gereko namey na wikipediya "Zazaki" mebo, "Kırdki" ya zi "Dımılki" bıbo..Lakin nıka namey na wikipediya eke "Zazaki"yo, Zazaki zonê ma pêrinano...
• Eke to wazenay na wikipediya seba tenya Zazakiyê Veroci bo, namey na wikipediya bıvurne "Zazakiyê Veroci" ya zi "Dımılki/Kırdki"
• Lakin gorey fikrê mı, na wikipediya seba ma Zazaun seba heme diyalektê Zazaki bo...Na wikipediya "milli" bo, mehelli mebo.
• Taê fikrê Mirzali ki, taê fikrê to ki raştê, rındê...Hama gereko na Wikipediya yê ma Zazaun pyêrinan bo...
• Seba ke şıma her roc qewğa kenê, coka ez nêwazen iştirak bıkêri.
• Endi kes/çew qewğa mekero. Wikipediya "Zazaki", ê Zazauna, mehelli niya, milliya. ----Belekvor^{mı rê mesaj bırusne} 13:09, 18 Şıbat 2009 (UTC)

Tamun, ez vun nuskarunê Vate û aya binun zi itiya dı gun bınusi. Zazaki dı yo alfabeyo standard çino. Mirzali wazen herkes ze yi binusi. İna nıben. Ço standardê yıni zi qebul niken. Eg itiya milliya, herkes gun itiya dı bınusi. Teyna "Zazacilar" nıben. Werte dı standard çino. Ayra ço nıeşken millet ri vaci ze mı bınusi. Xosere 19:45, 18 Şıbat 2009 (UTC)

Tamam bıra gorey mı no problem niyo. Herkes wa zê waştena xo bınuso. Her fekê Zazaki ki bıbo. Fekê veroc, merkez, zıme, Qoçgiriye, Gerger, Mutki uçb. bıbo. Labelê eke embazê Vateciy yenê, gani siyaset mekerime, u herkes serba ensiklopedi bıxebetiyo, siyaset mebo. Teyna Zazaki nustış bıbo. Bımane weşiye de.----Belekvor^{mı rê mesaj bırusne} 20:50, 18 Şıbat 2009 (UTC)

Medya

Hello Xosere: Sorry for writing in English. I saw that you opend the article "Medya". I'm trying to get an overview of the academic discipline media studies. Do you know what it's called in Dimli? (Probably you could translate the short article. The interwikilinks are a great help.) Greetings from Berlin --Kolja21 02:53, 4 Nisane 2009 (UTC)

Original Variants

Its better to write in the natural language which is speaking from the most. You should also use the pure central dialect. Because also the Dimilis don't accept anything from Central or Northern. So why we should us fit to the Dimilis?? --AliErsoy 19:20, 4 Nisane 2009 (UTC)

Zazaki Institute Standard

Can you list me the points, they are negative in the Standard of the Zazaki Institute? Then we can make this Standard better. Thank you. --AliErsoy 15:43, 11 Nisane 2009 (UTC)

I don't want to start this again. This is not the place for it. Hope you understand me. --Xosere 15:56, 11 Nisane 2009 (UTC)

The Zazaki Institute Standard is great, we should use it. --AliErsoy 18:16, 11 Nisane 2009 (UTC)

Feel free to use it in your personal articles. --Xosere 18:25, 11 Nisane 2009 (UTC)

de [der-]

Who the hell is talking about standards? It is about common spelling errors. In the sentences where the copula is replaced by the word, you write der- (e.g. Shanghai mıntıqa ra rocvetışê dewleta Çini dero.) and as an independent word, such as dı? What does it look like? The spelling has to be uniform. What should these children dalliance again, such as with “my article, your article”? I would not be always abusive, but it annoys me when I read such childish arguments. You see your own mistakes even after some time, but you don’t recognize it. As long a time as it was with "û" and with many other things.

I'm tired of every time to argue with you. I have no desire and I also see no sense in it. Either you see it, or you can’t attempt it. Because you come behind it after a while by yourself, what is wrong and what is right. Although it takes a bit longer, that you finally understand something, as in many cases. --Mirzali 10:55, 20 Nisane 2009 (UTC)

Mirzali, before you demand from Xosere, that he should use original variants from Northern, first accept standardized variants like "zi" from Central/Southern. The word "ki" is not iranic, so not Zazazaki, so why you claim on that??

"zi" is Proto Zazaki, loaned from Persian in the caspia aria, where the Proto-Zazas were lived. Like words like "xo" etc.

So, first begin to accept the Standards. Nobody except of Dersim can understand "ki". "zi" is using until Lice. --AliErsoy 15:35, 20 Nisane 2009 (UTC)

PS: Even Asmen did accept the û-letter in his Standard. If originality is for you so important, then accept the original û-loud and letter. --AliErsoy 15:38, 20 Nisane 2009 (UTC)

Ali, why do you interfere every time with every shit? It was not addressed to you. In which all this confusion has started with you. So, consider distance, okey!

I want not waste my valuable time with children like you. If you believe that you can do what you want, you do huge mistake. Once you have so much to learn before you can draw final conclusions. With copies from nisanyan or from other questionable sources is still far from done. Learn first-off your own language (dialect) correctly.

Any arguments from you (both) are from now on futile. Don’t try it once again. --Mirzali 19:51, 20 Nisane 2009 (UTC)

First, Ali is doing a great job.

Second, anybody can join any conversation in Wikipedia. This is a public messaging space.

Third, chill-out. We need to write millions of articles here. Feel free to write some of them and in whatever forms you feel confortable. Xosere 23:24, 20 Nisane 2009 (UTC)

You can’t make me again rules and regulations. I’m tired of your polemical statements and excuses. Finally, come back to your senses and leave off your imperious attitude. --Mirzali 08:06, 22 Nisane 2009 (UTC)

Originality

Bıra, please revert all changes of you where you made de to dı. We should use everywhere the most original variants. Also you deleted in the interface the word "jü" and nobody said something, while 99% of Dimili-speakers do use "jü".

So why this egoism Bıra, if a original variant comes from Northern?? I only speak about original variants, where we have attached evidences.

So delete also "Semed" and only use "Seba". Yeah, both comes from Arabic "sebeb", but:

If you write "sebebê roce" then its means "günün sebebi" and not "gün için".
gün için (for day) were: seba roce.
senin için = seba to.

We can not adulterate and impoverish Zazaki. You must always look to the meaning of the words.

So, nobody use "sebeb" for "for", only "seba", which is to the original at nearest. sebeb = sebep.

There is also not own Zazaki pure word for this meaning, the southern zazaki "qand-ê" is high-probably from Arabic. --AliErsoy 14:48, 28 Nisane 2009 (UTC)

Diyeb

You can ask me first, from where i have "diyeb" before you delete this entry. "diyeb" is a Bingöl-Zazaki variant, which was also using in the Original Text of "Destanê Gılgamışi".

http://diq.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Destan%C3%AA_G%C4%B1lgam%C4%B1%C5%9Fi&oldid=679

O wext Daristanî Sedîrî (darî sedîrî, darî erzî) mîyan de yew dîyebo merdimwer estû

You can see again: ê > iye change, whic is typical for Bingol. Like in cêr > ciyer (Pahlavi: ezêr > Farsian: zêr, Kurdish: jêr, Caspian: cêr > cir). --AliErsoy 10:03, 2 Gulane 2009 (UTC)

PS: You see also in your own texts the ê > iye shift. Like in:

• pêro = Northern Zazaki, piyer / pıyer = Central Zazaki, meaning: hepsi.

What is here your article or my article?

Your infantile behavior should gradually be enough Xosere. Because of you we could not continue for months. What is here your article or my article? You forget probably the developments of the articles. Change your behavior or leave this project immediately. We needn’t ignorant cultural philistines and racists, like you. --Mirzali 21:03, 12 Gulane 2009 (UTC)

YOU CANNOT CHANGE PEOPLE'S ARTICLES. GO WRITE YOUR OWN ARTICLES. --Xosere 00:54, 13 Gulane 2009 (UTC)

Personal Endings in Zazaki

First, there is a mistake here:

http://diq.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=ssssss&go=%C5%9Eo

"Tı wazeno" is false. Here are the right personal endings:

• Ez wazenan, ez bıwazi
• Tı wazenê (masculine), tı wazenay (feminine), tı bıwazê (both genders)
• O wazeno (masculine), o bıwazo (both genders)
• A wazena (feminine), a bıwazo (both genders)
• Ma wazenime, Ma bıwazime
• Şıma wazenê, şıma bıwazê
• Ê wazenê, ê bıwazê

--AliErsoy 20:43, 6 Temuz 2009 (UTC)

"ê bıwazên" is false, ê bıwazê (yı bıwazi, central). "şıma bıwazên" only for imperative, not subjunctive! --Karber:Asmen, 6.7.09, 23:40 (CET)

Zazacada Ergativ

Bıra Xosere, Zazacada Kurmancide gibi ergativ bir sistem vardır. Bu ne anlamına geliyor? Transitiv olan verbler için geçmiş zamanda özel davranış var. Sana bir kere transitiv ve intransitiv olan verbler arasında farkı göstereyim.

Transitiv verblere varsayımsal olarak "birşey" (yada İnglizcede: what) ekleye bilirsin, örnekler:

• kerdene (birşey edebiliyorsun, mesela iş)
• vıraştene (birşey yapabiliyorsun, mesela makine)
• werdene (birşey yiyebiliyorsun, mesela et)
• berdene (birşey götüre biliyorsun, mesela bir paket)
• diyene (birşey göre biliyorsun, mesela bir kadın)
• kıştene (birşey öldüre biliyorsun, mesela bir adamı)

Intransitiv verblere varsayımsal olarak "birşey" ekleyemesin, örnekler:

• mendene (birşey kalınmaz)
• şiyene (birşey gidilmez)
• xebetiyayene (birşey çalışılmaz)
• ameyene (birşey gidilmez)
• merdene (birşey ölünmez)

Intransitiv verblerde geçmişde birşey değişmiyor, Personal Pronomlar ve Personal Endingler aynı kalıyor (örnek: ez mendan = ben kaldım).
Fakat Transitiv Verblerde herşey ters oluyor, Personal Pronomlarla başlayalım.

ez > mı oluyor, mı > ez oluyor, örnek: to ez kıştan = sen beni öldürdün (Kurmanci: te ez kuştım)
Ne görüyoruz? "to" oblikus birdenbire rektus oluyor, "ez" rektus birden bire oblikus oluyor, "sen"in personal endingin yerine de "ben"in personalendingi geliyor. Çünkü hedef (target) "ez"de.

Başka örnek: mı kerd. Burda hiç bir personal ending gelmiyor, çünkü sadece bir pronomu yada bir lafı hedef (target) olarak alırsan onun endingi gelir.

Devam:

• tı > to oluyor, to > tı oluyor
• o > ey oluyor, ey > o oluyor
• a > aye oluyor, aye > a oluyor
• ma > ma oluyor, ma > ma oluyor
• şıma > şıma oluyor, şıma > şıma oluyor
• ê > inan oluyor, inan > ê oluyor.

Peki bazen verblerden endinglerde göre bilirsin, "e" ve "i", bunlar nezaman gelir? Bu hallerde:

• mı yew cenıke diye = ben bir kadın/kadını gördüm, "cenıke" burda hedef (target)de, ve feminin, yani "e" gelir.
• mı masey (maseyi) werdi = ben balıklar/balıkları yedim, şimdiki zamanda "ez maseyan wenan" olurken, geçmiş zamanda herşey terse dönüşüyor diye, "-an" > "-i" olur (bildiğin gibi "i" ile de plural kurulur). Burda "masey" targetde, yani ondan "werd"e plural olarak "i" gelir.

Peki sorarsan, neden "Metin Kahraman piya yew album vıraşt" oluyor? Cünkü "yew album" targetde, ve "album" maskulindir, ve maskulinde endingler ergativde gelmez. Kaide "miş"li geçmişi belirten -o endingi, örnek: vıraşto = yapmış, kerdo = etmiş.

Be dırûdane german --AliErsoy 17:06, 10 Temuz 2009 (UTC)

PS:

• "biyene" ve "musayene" = olmak ve öğrenmek bir istisna, intransitiv olan verblere sayılır, yani geçmişde birşey değişmez.

"fruit" in your dialect?

What do you say to "fruit" in your dialect? Zaf sıpas. --AliErsoy 14:35, 11 Temuz 2009 (UTC)

what it could be? --Xosere 18:48, 11 Temuz 2009 (UTC)

It is "mewê"? mewê were iranic. --AliErsoy 18:54, 11 Temuz 2009 (UTC)

Request for help

Greetings Xosere!Could I ask you to translate en:Qin Shi Huang(listed in 1000 vital articles) and en:Wuhan(a chinese city,my hometown) into Zazaki?You may shorten them as possible to contain only the basic informations,one or two sentences are enough. If you want me to translate any article into Chinese or Vahcuengh,contact me without hesistation. Thank you very much!--Biŋhai

to past, gecmek

What was the most original verb for "geçmek" in Zazaki and what is the old iranian examplle? I want put it to the Standard Site, thanks.--AliErsoy 17:11, 15 Tebaxe 2009 (UTC)

viyernayen --Xosere 17:22, 15 Tebaxe 2009 (UTC)

In Northern it is suchwise:

viyarnayene = gecirmek, vêrdene = gecmek.

How it is in the Central dialect? What is "gecmek" and what is "gecirmek"? Thanks. --AliErsoy 17:36, 15 Tebaxe 2009 (UTC)

check out koyo berz --Xosere 17:59, 15 Tebaxe 2009 (UTC)

Translation of a short story

Hi my friend!

I would like to request something from you. Yes, translation. I hope, it's not a bad thing for you. Some years ago I wrote a (really) short story about a lonely man (actually symbolized the Saami nation). I translated into some languages and I thought, it would be great to have it more, like also in Zazaki :) I made this page, the English translation is somewhere there. You can put the Zazaki translation there. Thank you again! Sorry for my disturb... :( - hu:User:Eino81

Wikipedia Logo with -e ending

Hello Xosere, if you have accepted now the feminine -e ending, which is the most original variant in Zazaki and which changes in Southern to -ı (kerdene > kerdenı, roce > rocı), then please change the logo too:

http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wikilogoe.png

Sıpas --AliErsoy 17:57, 31 Tebaxe 2009 (UTC)

Bıra Xosere, why you ignore me? What is your problem? Now we have comed to a point, where we unify us, and you do this. --AliErsoy 19:07, 3 Keşkelun 2009 (UTC)

Kurdish Academy opened an Etymology Forum

It inclued Zazaki too:

http://kurdishacademy.org/?q=forum/18

--AliErsoy 15:08, 1 Keşkelun 2009 (UTC)

Varyantê Zazaki

Why the hell do you need in all, always have the last word? You see yourself as infallible, indispensable, and so perfect. From the beginning, you participated in these lists. What’s about Etimolociyê çekuyanê Zazaki? Has anyone objected you in this case? There, it is your individual machination, without any scientific basis. In oppose, we only write what actually exists in the language, and don’t come every time like you with hypothetical ideas.

Why do you want to undermine our work and toil and make it for naught? In which you move back and forth our articles, and even delete them. With your attitude, nobody wants write here anything more, because you change it all and finally you represent it as your own work.

You can not speak for everyone here and see you every time in the right position. You should restrain your behavior and finally stop trying to make anyone regulations. And come not with polemical things and twisting of the matter. We had it already in the past. I'm now tired to cope you all. I would like to repeat myself anymore. --Mirzali 05:17, 12 Keşkelun 2009 (UTC)

Feel free to delete Etimolociyê çekuyanê Zazaki stuff too. Yes it doesn't fit to Wikipediya's format. That's stuff good for wiktionary. Other varyante zazaki stuff doesn't fit to Wikipediya's goals either. It needs to be probably under your username extension since they are your personal project. --Xosere 18:52, 12 Keşkelun 2009 (UTC)

Xosere, please took the link to "Varyantê Zazaki" to the Welcome-Box again. Nobody except of ZazaYasar has a problem with this, if the word "standard" doesnt stay, the only problem was the word "standard".

Look, users want a standard: http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pela_Seri#selam_.C5.9F.C4.B1ma_hem.C4.B1ner.C3.AA.21

You say, the startpage must be so compact as posible. But like you see, there are only 5 links, so its not matter if you took again the link Varyantê Zazaki.

Look, which progress I made:

I found a word for "foreign" in Zazaki: http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Varyantê_Zazaki/Çekuyê_ke_Erebki_ra_yenê#.C4.9F

Nisanyan: http://nisanyansozluk.com/search.asp?w=bigane&x=0&y=0

Ferheng: http://legerin.ferheng.org/search.php?lang=kurd2turk&query=yabanci&ziman=ku

Kurds and Persian use it.

I found a word for "same" in Zazaki, that we don't use for all "zey" (like/as): http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Varyantê_Zazaki/Çekuyê_ke_Erebki_ra_yenê#e

http://legerin.ferheng.org/search.php?lang=kurd2turk&query=ayni&ziman=ku

Kurds and Persian use it. The kurds took it also from Persian, like "rojname".

I found a word for "verb" in Zazaki: http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Varyantê_Zazaki/Çekuyê_ke_Erebki_ra_yenê#w

Step by Step our standard will be perfect for a common writing language.

Thank you --AliErsoy 16:08, 12 Keşkelun 2009 (UTC)

This is not the place to make your "standard" language. Go open anew website or make pdf article. this is just not the place. --Xosere 18:53, 12 Keşkelun 2009 (UTC)

Ok, but don't delete or move the sites please, anyway nobody see them, so let us work. Thank you. We can not move them to our userpages, because then is a collective work between me and Mirzali not possible. We gave so much efforts, so let this as a part of Wikipedia. In every Wikipedia there are sites where stands the rules of writing.

PS: You wanted to put a link to the "Portale cemaeti" site, can you put it? Thank you. --AliErsoy 09:11, 13 Keşkelun 2009 (UTC)

Okay, go on and waste your time. --Xosere 12:42, 13 Keşkelun 2009 (UTC)

Difference between yew and -êda, -êdo

Northern/Southern stil:

yew wendebend = bir kitap
yew zazakiyo pak = bir temiz zazaca
zazakiyêdo pak = temiz bir zazaca
yew gama rınde = bir iyi adım
gamêda rınde = iyi bir adım

Central stil:

yew wendebend = bir kitap
yew zazakiyo pak = bir temiz zazaca
zazakiyêko pak = temiz bir zazaca
yew gama rınde = bir iyi adım
gamêka rınde = iyi bir adım

--AliErsoy 11:57, 13 Keşkelun 2009 (UTC)

I don't know which stil is older, we must research on this issue. But what I know is, that the -êk of the Central Stil comes from the same root as Kurdish -ek and Sanskrit êka. Maybe Southern/Northern -êd is a changed version of -êk. --AliErsoy 12:15, 13 Keşkelun 2009 (UTC)

Now I learned that we can differ this like englisch "one" and "a"

êda, êdo/eka, êko = a/an, yew = one. --AliErsoy 10:18, 21 Keşkelun 2009 (UTC)

Questions

What do you say to "xeylê" in Central dialect? Northern dialect: xeylê, Arabic: xeylî. Thanks --AliErsoy 13:28, 17 Keşkelun 2009 (UTC)

"C"-loud in Zazaki

http://ziwanema.com/modules.php?name=Sections&artid=15

Greetings! --AliErsoy 19:47, 24 Tişrino Verên 2009 (UTC)

PS:

Now we have also a dictionary (look to right in the "Qisebend"-box):

http://ziwanema.com/

Subdomain for dictionary start-page:

http://qisebend.ziwanema.com/

In 2 days the site get the final-status. I also fixed many mistakes:

http://ziwanema.com/modules.php?name=Forum&topic=4.msg25#new

Discussion about Standard Zazaki:

http://ziwanema.com/modules.php?name=Forum&topic=8.msg23#new

It were nice, if you also be a member. This site has potential. Thank you.

--AliErsoy 15:23, 26 Tişrino Verên 2009 (UTC)

Please change the logo

This logo is made with Adobe Photoshop CS4 Extended with the Pro-Version of the Garamound font:

http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wikilogoe3.png

Please change it, because Mirzali hasn't the heart to do it because of your conflincts. Thank you. --AliErsoy 20:51, 21 Tişrino Peyên 2009 (UTC)

current logo fine, no need change. --Xosere 21:42, 21 Tişrino Peyên 2009 (UTC)

Dear Ali,

you fall back into your old behavior. Please, don’t spread rumors about others, unless you really have sought no opinion of one person. I have no personal animosity attitude towards anyone. Even Xosere I do not know personally. I criticize him solely because of his behavior, that's all it is. His incompetence in the Zazaish language is gradually public known. He still has much to learn about Zazaki. He knows himself and it is therefore not an insult to him. Well, if something needs to be changed in our Wikipedia, this responsibility is not only in Xoseres hand. He can’t force anybody to enforce his own rules and order each time his stubbornness. Where there is such a thing? But because of him we will not continue. --Mirzali 09:46, 22 Tişrino Peyên 2009 (UTC)

Mirzali with "heart.." I meaned in German "sich trauen", I translated this part of the sentence with a dictionary.

To Xosere: "Ho" is the most original variant and its a step against the dialect-politic of the Kurdists.

Compare: Kurdish: xwe, Zazaki: ho. Read also: http://ziwanema.com/zazaki-institut/forum/index.php?id=24

Like you have seen, the Vateists like Roshan Lezgin find it very normal to import Kurmanji words into Zazaki. Read the fourth part of this: http://www.zazaki.net/haber/derheq-tay-wendoxan-zazak.net-de-258.htm

So why you support this guys?? Because Asmên and Mirzali don't write in some cases the /y/-loud, because of this little issue??? Or because we don't write phonemes they are not speaking, like "Nuşteyê Hefteyi" which is in every dialect "Nuştey Heftey"? Every langauge has it phoneme-rules!

You have your own brain, so think instead of adapting of Aspars stupid ideas!

PS: ZazaYasar has sent you an important offline message to your Yahoo Messenger, look it! --AliErsoy 10:48, 22 Tişrino Peyên 2009 (UTC)

People, Folks to finaly understand, Xosere isnt a Zazaist. So its clear that he wont work with you. Unlike you he doesnt deny the history and accepts his Kurdish roots. He has realized that Vate can better develop our dialect. Berxwedan

---

To all: We think you guys don't understand us. The Kurdish identity discussions are irrelevant to us. Zazaki is a language, Kurmanci is a language, Sorani is a language, Persian is a language, Mazandarani is a language. The seperation of these languages is even older than French, Italian, Spanish, and Portuguese separation from the Latin language. You can put Zazaki in Kurdish languages sub category under Ari (Iranian) languages, or Zaza-Gorani sub category of Ari languages. It still doesn't matter.

So that's why We don't like to be Zazaists, who constantly want differ themselves from the Kurmanci language. And also We don't want to be like Kurdist Vate, who tries to make the language as close as possible to the Kurmanci language. We are trying to find a middle way.

The reason we chose /î/ over /ı/ is simply /ı/ is Turkish, looks stupid, and not serious for Zazaki language. This doesn't make us Kurmancists. Kurmanci alphabet is just like Turkish. ç, ş, j, a, e, c are all like Turkish. So Kurmanci alphabet is not a good alphabet for an Iranian language. That's why even Sorani speakerd doesn't like it. They don't accept it because it is very close to Turkish. Zazaist alphabet is even worse. However, we are still using /ğ/ because it is diffrent from /x/. Just look at "ğerîb" and "xirab". It is very obvious. Just because Kurmanci writers don't use it is not a justification for Zazaki.

So we choose good sides of both camps. For example, we write /c/ loads and /j/ loads and the reason is obvious.we don't use Kurmanci loanwords. Why should we use. There is no reason for that. They don't use Zazaki words either. So, wtf? The reason Asmen and Mirzali doesn't write /y/ is because it is not in their dialects. The reason we don't want to work with Asmen and Mirzali is that they promote their dialects. They are not sincere in a standard language.

To Mirzali: I sent you a proposal to solve the issues. You haven't replied me back. If you want to work this out. Send me an email. We can discuss this issue privately. --Xosere 17:01, 22 Tişrino Peyên 2009 (UTC)

My intention is not to make Zazaki far from Kurmanci. As example I am not against words like "bacar", because there is not any variant which is more original. But in the "xo-ho" issue we can see, that "ho" is the most original variant and it connects directly to Old Iranic "hvet". If you don't accept "ho", then you make the same thing as the persons they promote their own dialects. You say, you pick out the best things of the two sides, why you are then against "ho"? The variant "vewre" is also using by a minority and many other variants in the standard language.

With which reason you support the î-i-writing of the Northern Kurds?

î = means long i, i = means short i. But in Zazaki there is not a differentiation between short and long i like in Persian.

In Zazaki, Kurdish and Hewrami there is a differentiation between "i" and dump "ı". So "ı" is the most right letter to represent this vowel. You saw self in the word "çı" for "what" that the letter î doesn't represent always the Old Iranic long î. So your systemetical mindset goes into an impasse. It doesn't matter if also other turkic people use ı. Other turkic people use also letters like ç, ş and so on.

Thank of me Asmen changed his standard and even his alphabet, because I showed him my arguments and worked with him. You can not await that all things will be suchwise how you like. If all were think like you then we were have 999 standards. You must look for compromises.

The /y/-loud comes in the pronouncing, but there is this difference:

"y" yazılmıyınca "y" ile hece uzatılmiyor, "y" yazılınca hece uzatılıyor

Örnek: roş-tia mı = ışığım, ka-mi-ya ma = kimliğimiz

Yani iki hece biteşik telaffuz ediliyor, diftong gibi.

And we use in words where is the /y/-loud historic always the /y/-louds, like in: ciya, raye etc.

Only in "maya mı" and "waya mı" you are right, we should use this forms. If you work with us, I can convince Asmên and Mirzali, belive me. --AliErsoy 19:15, 22 Tişrino Peyên 2009 (UTC)

Slm ne yapiyorsunuz?

Xoser sana mesaj yazmistim geri yazmadim hayirdir ?? Alfabeni degistirmissin ondan bir sorayim acaba neden? Aslinda sana yazmistim iyi yapmadin diye. Neden Bedirxan'in alfabesini almissin bence iyi yapmamissin... Zaza yasar

---

It is not an act of defiance of me, but I would like in the future no longer bother with ignorant people. We can’t tolerate for one or two people no foreign particles in our language, be it only because of a letter. This is not anything about Turkish and Kurdish. It only concerns itself solely to Zazaki. The sounds, grammar and spelling of the Zazaish language is already known and explored a large extent. Since there is no need artificial middle inventions. These are just studded with ulterior political polemics. We have already discussed these issues several times, so I would not repeat myself. It is outrageous that only one person ever sets conditions and rules and all others must follow them. Where there is such a thing? Every time our approach will be confused because of some stupid new ideas and this destroys our project instead of bringing it further. Not to mention, our effort is undermined by one or two people who is even not able to speak his own dialect. How can those people be able to master an entire language? For this reason I can not and will not respond to the demands of these people. I say just jump the truth, which meant people should therefore not be offended. I also have less desire than more confrontation, because it brings us so no further forword. The more I speak from experience. I have no concern about some stupid rivalry. I'm just worried about our language in general, nothing more. --Mirzali 11:50, 23 Tişrino Peyên 2009 (UTC)

"Ho" exists and is the most original variant, so I dont see any problems. I speak my dialect very well, only in building of sentences I have some hassle. --AliErsoy 14:51, 23 Tişrino Peyên 2009 (UTC)

Dear Ali,

my answer is to Xosere. My concern is more about the Kurdish alphabet and elements, which he so forcibly defends and not about ho and xo. Both are Zazaish words and are therefore equivalent. The arguments in support of his friends had betrayed him what plans he has. Further discussions would be meaningless and we would not get it anywhere. What I do not understand why we are accused with such a nonsensical name like Zazacı? We are real Zazas and not so-called Zazacıs. It is quite natural, therefore, that we commit ourselves as engaged for Zazaki. Other nations do the same for their own language. It is not our job to defend other languages, while our language is still short on the track. We are concerned primarily about Zazaki. Our problem is not Turkish or Kurdish, and that is why we are still far from being racist. It is only our natural right to protect our language by consciously artificial foreign influences. As I said, everything else is absurd in polemical arguments and political views and that justifies nobody under these pretexts to destroy our project. --Mirzali 14:28, 24 Tişrino Peyên 2009 (UTC)

Okay Bıra, I see. Let tell me te facts

• Xosere said in the mail, that we can change the logo
• "Ho" is the most original variant and exists according to Xosere also in Central Zazaki sub-dialects

So to Xosere: What is now your problem? To Mirzali: Please change the logo, Xosere is not the owner of Wikipedia. The variant "ho" is the most original and the most right choose. --AliErsoy 18:31, 24 Tişrino Peyên 2009 (UTC)

i didn't say you can change the logo. if you want to go by rules, then this is diq.wikipedia, this means system messages has to be in diq, which is currently not. i am not making this an issue. however, i set my conditions last week, which very favorable to you all but mirzali refuses. if you guys accept, then we can work. if not, then let it go. --Xosere 21:06, 24 Tişrino Peyên 2009 (UTC)

Wikipediya standards

You have more problems than I have honestly accepted it so far. You need an urgent professional help. It is not likely to be a drive for perfection, but an act of defiance from you. At the time when we can use any text you want to undermine them all. It's about the language and not about your silly idealism. What do you think, what other Wikipedias have for articles that have nothing to do with an encyclopedia. Are you the keeper of Wikipedia, or what? Let treat you better, you cultural philistine! Do not stand us every time with your stupid ideas through. --Mirzali 22:06, 29 Tişrino Peyên 2009 (UTC)

you cannot put my personal information here. you should put your personal writings under your user name. --Xosere 22:53, 29 Tişrino Peyên 2009 (UTC)

Tell me, you still ticks right? You silly boy! It is an article of mine. I've put it under my user name. --Mirzali 23:02, 29 Tişrino Peyên 2009 (UTC)

It's against to Wikipedia's privacy policy. You keep re-posting it which is not permitted. I have referred the case to Wikimedia. --Xosere 20:12, 2 Kanun 2009 (UTC)

Request for help, please

Dear Xosere, nice to meet you! I wonder if you would be so kind to help translate a very short-stub version of 3-4 sentences of this article for the Zazaki Wikipedia? Thanks for your time. I hope to hear from you. Sincerely--Brezza del mare 08:10, 16 Kanun 2009 (UTC)

MediaWiki default

Hi, I see you blocked User:MediaWiki default that is a system bot. Could you please remove the block? Thanks ;) --Nick1915 03:14, 5 Çele 2010 (UTC)

No I didn't. --Xosere 19:37, 5 Çele 2010 (UTC)

Logo

Bıra Xosere, to rê zehmet, logoê Wikipediya zê veri bıke. Yew proje karê do piao, o wext ma gereke pia qerar cı dime, heni/otir niyo? Lazım niyo ke ma reyna na mesela sero werênime. Wekalê sılaman, Asmên, 1.7.2010, 23:43 (CET)

Ez nizun seni logo degis biy, ez nizun kum degis kerd. in sistema newi'd ez nizun seni logo degis ben. heralde merkeze wikipediya'd yo merdim logo degis kerd. ez itiya'd î kullanmis niken. -Xosere

Assalaamu 'alaykum . . .

Could you help us brother??? Please see: m:Requests for comment/ace.wikipedia and Prophet Muhammad images. Thank you. Jazaakallaah. -- Si Gam Acèh 05:19, 18 Temuz 2010 (UTC)

Wiktionary project

I will still remain an admin of the Wiktionary project:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wiktionary_Zazaki_2

That the balance between you (Aspar and you) and us remains. As in Wikipedia. Wiktionary is not your own product.

No frear, i won't change anything.

But there are many mistakes in your etymological informations. I and Asmen can fix it, if we have time.

--Omid 15:33, 26 Temuz 2010 (UTC)

PS: I fixed the grammer mistakes in the first sentence:

http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wt/diq/Pela_Seri --Omid 15:44, 26 Temuz 2010 (UTC)