Wikipedia:Portalê cemaeti/Dessysop process
Dear members of the community!
I want that Xosere will be removed from the sysop position at this project. Because of his ignorant personal views, it will be achieved no increase in this project for months. He sees himself as an individual owner of the project and prevents other people from any contribution. Although he, himself is not powerful in the Zazaish language generally. He can’t even speak its own dialect, because he is from the Central Zaza region. He destroys the project more than he contributes. My statement is absolutely true, and I hope many of you can testify it. So I would like to start a dessysop process here. About this matter, I have also asked the Stewards on Meta to implement whatever it is our community comes up with. Please help me in this matter and give your votes. Thanks! --Mirzali 22:41, 15 Şıbat 2009 (UTC)
- 1 Arguments in favour
- 2 Arguments against
- 3 General discussion
- 3.1 My goal is to create more diversity here
- 3.2 Rights of the project
- 3.3 To Xoseres constant excuses and contradictions in his statements
- 3.4 No development is possible due to an one-man dominance
- 3.5 E-mail
- 3.6 Kindergarten game on diq.wikipedia
- 3.7 Xosere's infantile behavior is no longer bearable
- 3.8 We don't need a regionalist and racist as a sysop
- 3.9 Our patience is at an end with Xosere!
Arguments in favour[çımey bıvurnê]
- Support : I agree with this process, because he (Xosere) has abused our good nature too long. He must be moved away from the sysop position. This is very important and necessary for the independent development of this project. --Mirzali 22:58, 15 Şıbat 2009 (UTC)
Arguments against[çımey bıvurnê]
- The reason Mirzali is against me is that he wants to implement a standard Zazaki that he and his friend developped. That language is an artficial language and nobody knows how to speak it. The language that I use here has an ethnologue code "diq" (called, Dimli Zazaki) and that is the the domain name of this Wikipedia. We had a long discussion about this issue at meta-wiki: m:Requests for comments/Zazaki wikipedia Xosere 23:46, 15 Şıbat 2009 (UTC)
- Besides, I have done nothing wrong and unethical. I am the proposer and the first sysop of this wikipedia. Also if you look at statistics for the Zazaki Wikipedia, I am the most active user here. Xosere 23:46, 15 Şıbat 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry, but the views that have been presented in the support heading are not what I would want to see from a sysop under any pretenses. In my opinion, Xosere hasn't done anything wrong; if anything, he has done more for this project than anyone else can say at this point in time. I find it utterly ridiculous that Xosere is being held up for desysopping when in fact he hasn't abused the tools (as far as I can tell). Furthermore, I am glad that this page is written in English ;). Cheers, Razorflame 01:35, 16 Şıbat 2009 (UTC)
- In addition to what is written by me above, I have looked through the past 500 changes for both Mizrali and Xosere, and the past 100 administrative actions done by both Mizrali and Xosere. Both use the blocking tool inappropriately (when Xosere blocked Mizrali, and Mizrali unblocked himself). To Xosere: The blocking tool is not meant to be used in that manner. However, Mizrali: Unblocking yourself after another administrator blocked you isn't the right way to do anything, either. All 500 changes from both people involved in this discussion are very beneficial towards this Wikipedia, however, I highly doubt that this Wikipedia will be able to get any new members if two of the sysops here are quabbling over such a petty issue such as this. While looking through Xosere's administrative actions, I have found nothing else of issue that would make the user be able to lose his sysop bit other than that one instance. Hope this helps to facilitate the discussion. Razorflame 01:47, 16 Şıbat 2009 (UTC)
General discussion[çımey bıvurnê]
- All his (Xoseres) arguments are irrelevant. Of course he will say to the contrary. He wants as an individual enforce his stubbornness, contrary to all the other people here. His loss for this project is much greater than his benefits. --Mirzali 00:06, 16 Şıbat 2009 (UTC)
- Why my account is irrelevant? As an individual, I have the right to defend myself. I did not enforce anything to anybody. I am the proposer of this project. I have designed the main page, I have design the portals, and I did many useful and productive things here. Xosere 00:19, 16 Şıbat 2009 (UTC)
- He attacked me with the worst insults so often in his private e-mails and therefore I no longer want to answer him personally.
He did it with all our help and all that he also denies. He is not aware of any dialect of Zazaki. He even don’t speak his own dialect, well. He is from the Central Zaza region. His arguments are contradictory. He is enormous lying in this case. If it should be important, the DIQ is actually a code for the Southern Zazaki. He abuses the rules to his advantage. --Mirzali 00:45, 16 Şıbat 2009 (UTC)
- I think everything is obvious from what Mr. Mirzali writes here. He is tagetting me personally. The reason that he wants me to leave is simply that I don't agree with him. I am here for diversity of ideas and dialects. --Xosere 01:11, 16 Şıbat 2009 (UTC)
My goal is to create more diversity here[çımey bıvurnê]
This Wikipedia unfortunetely has failed in terms of diversity. People who wrote in their mother's dialects were banned by Mirzali. Some people were banned from this Wikipedia by Mirzali simply because they did not share the same views with him. One of the biggest Zazaki writers group is called Vate Group. The members of this group has been unwelcomed by Mirzali. Some were banned, some had already knew that they were unwanted here.
My goal for this year is to create a diverse environment here. I contacted to writers in Vate group and invited them to here. I told them they are free to write anything they want at any form. I would like to create a mutual tolarance here. This Wikipedia should not be for one political group. It should be open to every walks of life. Xosere 01:19, 16 Şıbat 2009 (UTC)
- These are all great excuses and lies. He always tries to keep the upper hand. Nobody has chased people here except that they are gone because of his behavior. He don't know how he will pervert the matter. His earlier arguments are against him. He can't clean up his conscience. You can read it all in the archives. So you will see the truth. It is almost so ridiculous that he even tries to do. --Mirzali 01:37, 16 Şıbat 2009 (UTC)
- He comes up constantly with useless new ideas. Initially he wanted to change the traditional alphabet. Then he insisted that other dialects should be banned. And he has changed the content of quite a few existing articles, although his grammar and spelling was faulty.
Then he has contacted the Pro-Kurdish people, even though he knows their political views. They mix knowingly Kurdish words into Zazaki and write with the Kurdish alphabet. The Kurdish alphabet does definitely not fit to the sounds of Zazaki. These people have finally distanced themselves from him.
Now he tries to place articles under foreign titles, although there already exist Zazaki terms. He has so far contributed no separate articles. If anything he has written, is all with grammatical and spelling errors. He copied, changed and moves the articles back and forth. He has no idea of the spelling and grammar of this language, but a sysop must also be gifted linguistically. He has to stop with this edit war. There is no sole right to him to determine about this project. --Mirzali 12:04, 16 Şıbat 2009 (UTC)
- In every Wikipedia there are working people with different personal views, and nobody had until this time a problem with this, exceptions were only users they are rascists etc. Mirzalis Problem is, that he can not accept, that there are users, they don't think as him. Therefore he is against Zazaki Writers, they feel themselve as Kurds. Which traditional Alphabet you are meaning? Every region and author has his own Alphabet. Only Authors from the Vate-Grup have a unified Alphabet.
- That Alphabet what you use is the Turkish Alphabet.
- Xoseres Zazaki is not perfect, but his knowledge about the language is enough. He is able to adminstrate the Wikipedia. From where you know that he copy articles from other? Do you have evidences? If not, why you bring such claims? He write his articles self.
- He wanted to ban the Kiu-Dialect, and this was not illegal, because here is the Dimilki-Wikpedia and also Xoseres region Bingöl, Palu which you call Central is accourding to SIL a part of Dimilki. So, official statements have more importance. --AliErsoy 13:04, 16 Şıbat 2009 (UTC)
- Even such a petty personality. In his private e-mails and chats, he is definitely against Xosere. In public he is suddenly taking part of him. Why this sudden change? He is such a cunning traitor, who rums you ruthless the knife in the back. For this reason his statement can not be taken seriously. --Mirzali 15:01, 16 Şıbat 2009 (UTC)
Rights of the project[çımey bıvurnê]
He (Xosere) can not and should not be the only user who makes up the rules and impose them all other people here. Nobody has the right to do like that, because this is a free project.
He (Xosere) should stop with the edit war and he should not be able to modify existing articles, certainly not with his little knowledge about Zazaki.
This project is free for all people, but everyone should consider the spelling and grammar of the Zazaish language. Like all other languages, that language also has its own alphabet and its own grammar.
We tolerate no foreign words, terms and no foreign influence as long as we can cope with them in our own language.
These are basically no new rules, but are self-evident rights of an autonomous language. Also all other Wikipedia projects proceed with similar intentions.
This is an important project, and not any forum place, therefore it should be gathered an independent and factual knowledge in this project.
These and other important unwritten rights, to serve the preservation and protection of this project and for the purposes of the development of Zazaki should be respected by all users.
If Xosere and his like-minded pals continue their personal intentions to abuse this project, they will certainly encounter more resistance.
As I said, this is not a rule statement. It is a right of course and it violates no rules of the Wikipedia project. --Mirzali 21:01, 17 Şıbat 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not making up rules. The language of this wikipedia is diq. You don't even use this dialect. However, I would like to get everybody involved in this project and I think everybody should involve in the project, especially people that differ in political opinions. This is how the English or German or any other Wikipedias work.
- This language does not have a standard alphabet. Only vate writers have their standard alphabets. Lots of writers use ifferent letters. Nobody should prevent others using the alphabets that they will comfortable. Nobody should dictate anybody how to use the language and letters. There is just no certain alphabets in this language and there are dialects. Xosere 07:39, 18 Şıbat 2009 (UTC)
- Here are the wikipeia's rules:
- The proposal is to open a new language edition of an existing Wikimedia project that does not already exist (see the complete list of Wikimedia projects or the SiteMatrix).
- The language must have a valid ISO-639 1–3 code (search).
- If there is no valid ISO-639 code, you must obtain one. The Wikimedia Foundation does not seek to develop new linguistic entities; there must be an extensive body of works in that language. The information that distinguishes this language from another must be sufficient to convince standards organizations to create an ISO-639 code.
- The language must be sufficiently unique that it could not coexist on a more general wiki. In most cases, this excludes regional dialects and different written forms of the same language.
- The degree of difference required is considered on a case-by-case basis. The subcommittee does not consider political differences, since the Wikimedia Foundation's goal is to give every single person free, unbiased access to the sum of all human knowledge, rather than information from the viewpoint of individual political communities.
- The proposal has a sufficient number of living native speakers to form a viable community and audience. (Wikisource wikis are allowed in languages with no native speakers, although these should be on a wiki for the modern form of the language if possible.)
To Xoseres constant excuses and contradictions in his statements[çımey bıvurnê]
Xoseres statements are a contradiction in itself. He always tries to abuse the rules to his intentions. Nobody is talking about political views of other people. Everyone is free, however.
Of course, this language (Zazaki) has, like any other languages, a proven own alphabet. It is certainly not the Kurdish alphabet, which is phonetically not suitable to Zazaki, because it doesn’t reproduce exactly the Zazaki sounds.
Northern, Central and Southern dialects, with their peripheral idioms are all, apart from their word variations and regional sounds, one and the same language.
Xosere comes from a Zazaish family, but his primary language is definitely not Zazaki. He is like many other Zazas in Turkey and abroad grew up with foreign languages (such as Turkish, Kurdish, English, French, German, etc.). I can well imagine that his family has always denied themselves because of their origin among foreign cultures and therefore they have abandoned the Zazaish language and have not continued to mediate their children. Only in the course of their lives, many Zaza children and Xosere also rediscovered their actual affiliation. But they have lost their culture and have forgotten their language in the last long years. What they still can, it goes not through a couple more non-word chunks. Unfortunately, this is the pure and true fact and not an assumption.
What Xosere and his buddies like Ali Ersoy now know about Zazaki are just a few memorized words. They are not familiar with the grammatical intricacies of the Zazaish language. For this reason they degrades everything that they don't yet know as strange and they think that all other would not even know it. But there are, thank God, many people (like Zülfü Selcan, Koyo Berz, Ludwig Paul, Faruk İremet, Asmêno Bêwayir etc.), they are very knowledgeable about the matter and have written lots of valuable literature in Zazaki.
I myself am a native speaker since my childhood and I’m researching intensively since several years on the grammar and spelling of Zazaki.
So I certainly know, what I’m talking about. Besides why should I ever accuse someone, if there would be nothing? There are no personal intentions, as Xosere represents it. It's all about the language.
He (Xosere) and his buddies should learn the Zazaki grammar and spelling better and should not tangle every time in excuses. --Mirzali 14:15, 18 Şıbat 2009 (UTC)
- These statements are basically not true. He doesn't know me. Xosere 19:47, 18 Şıbat 2009 (UTC)
- I know exactly how the wind blows and I know a lot of stuff about him than he guesses. This is not a sufficient argument from him. It tells how only a liar behaves. --Mirzali 23:11, 18 Şıbat 2009 (UTC)
No development is possible due to an one-man dominance[çımey bıvurnê]
He (Xosere) is continuing to block the position as a sysop by his tenacity. Because of his arrogance and ignorance, he prevented the people here to contribute and he still pulls his one-man show in this project. Well, there are still more months passed and there are no acting successes. It is because of him, why in this project, no real development is possible to achieve. Because of his constantly changing opinion due to ignorance, but his dominant action prevents it. --Mirzali 08:32, 24 Adare 2009 (UTC)
- I prevented nobody to write here. You are telling things about me that is completely untrue. If it was true, it would be seen from my contributions history. People can look at the history and see for themselves. I actually encourage people to write here. I even personally invited some user to this Wikipedia and taught them how to write in a Wikipedia.
- There are millions of articles needs to be written in this Wikipedia. Instead of constantly targeting, you could spend your time to write a couple of them. And that would be much better for this project. In Wikipedia nobody can prevent anybody to write. Everybody is free to write, and that is the Wikipedia's philosophy. This philosophy made Wikipedia the largest encyclopedia on earth. I strongly believe in that philosophy myself and that's why I started this project three years ago. Xosere 16:36, 24 Adare 2009 (UTC)
- As he also likes to twist things, he will not so easily get out of the affair. He turns our own statements against us in the public. In his contributions history you can merely see quarrels over his attempts to patronize others. In which he constantly arrived with useless, confused ideas and tried to enforce them vigorously. Under the effort, he would not understand this and that and therefore he changed permanently existing articles and he is still doing it even more so on.
- The fact is, he can neither understand nor speak Zazaki completely. With his low Zazaki knowledge he is incapable to differ of wrong from right. But he forbids us even to correct grammatical and spelling mistakes in the articles. For this reason he should not even have the power to do so in order to manipulate the things.
- Well, because of only one person we can’t and don’t want let our efforts and contributions in this project to basically perish, because we have worked from the beginning for this project. His constantly excuses and attempts on retaining the upper hand, he should better leave it.
- Other Wikipedias are light years ahead of us and continue to develop. We are two people here, as opposed to war because of our small trifles and act on personal slights. This should stop immediately, because others laugh and amuse themselves on us. --Mirzali 19:11, 24 Adare 2009 (UTC)
- Mr. Mirzali, you are just merely repeating yourself. In this Wikipedia, we are trying to work with two important main dialects, diq and kiu. This brings a lot of difficulties. It sometimes gets harder to reconcile differences between the two. That's why I ask you to accept the differences and work through what we could do best.
- The issue that makes you upset is that you want everything in this Wikipedia to be written according to what you perceive to be right, or according to your dialect. This is almost impossible to do. There are different variations and political views. We have to able to host all the differences in views and dialects. This is how other Wikipedia prejects work.
- Also I am very happy to say that we have recently more contributions from newly registered and unregistered users. As people see that this Wikipedia is actually an open and free place, I believe we will have more contributions in the future. Xosere 01:43, 25 Adare 2009 (UTC)
- What a bad actor! Courtesy phrases impress me now no more. This train has already departed. He would have been think over previously, before he arrived with worst insults and insinuations. I know the people very well now. Since nobody can fool me something and he can also save his sarcasm. He should instead remain factually better.
- Anyway, I also know we need repeat ourselves each time no longer, but it seems to be still not go down. He twists the things again and again according to his views.
- Dımılki and Kırmancki, both are our common ground, on which we initially wanted to work. But it is not well received by anyone. For this dilemma, we have probably ensured mutual misunderstandings on both sides. Now, a separation of the Zazaki dialects perhaps brings us to a solution. But in this project are now articles available in both dialects. However, the place for Kırmancki is not over yet been released.
- I'm just concerned to Zazaki with all its dialects. Personal interests not employ me in the slightest. He will understand me only when he experienced and has become more mature, but it seems we will still have to wait a long time. --Mirzali 12:34, 25 Adare 2009 (UTC)
- There are millions of articles needs to be written in this Wikipedia. You are free to write them in Kirmanjki or Dimli. Nobody will touch your articles. However, you should not change other people articles too because people get very upset when you change them. We can still work under this framework. Xosere 17:09, 25 Adare 2009 (UTC)
Ezo nezdi ra nuştoğ u taê roştberanê ma rê e-mail bırusni, na mesela uca de hal kerime. Nêbeno ke riyê qewğa dı mordemu ra no proje vındero. Jüyê be hêrs nusneno, o bin her roc fıkr ya ki alfabe ya ki herfê vurneno, nusneno. No qeyde ra nêbeno. --Asmên, 25.3.2008, 16:50 (CET)
- Eno proje vındertı niyo. Herkes itiya dı eşkenê bınusi. Ço karış nıbeno. Eg tı wazeno Kırmanjki dı bınusi ya zi Dimilki dı bınusi, ço nıeşken nuştey tı bıvırno. Herkes serbestê. Xosere 17:46, 25 Adare 2009 (UTC)
- Mesela a niya, Xoser beg, tı zanê ke ez kamci meselu rê vanu. Kırmancki, Dımılki, Zazaki, Zonê Ma; ni pêro jü zon ifade kenê, ni "diyalekt"i niyê, namê diyalektu niyo. Ma jübini rê hurmetê xo kerdo vindi. Pia gurenais u xebat de usıl u qeyde lazımo, vicdan lazımo, hurmet lazımo, raa ilmi lazıma. Proje vınderde mebo ki, qe rınd raver nêsono; zon u gramer qetl beno, alfabe qetl beno. Ez be xo nêwazenu ke riyê inatu ra jüna wikipedia akeri, uca bınusni; no karê aqıli niyo. Ma na wikipedia bile be pêrodais u zor ra gurete. --Asmên, 25.3.2008, 19:10 (CET)
Kindergarten game on diq.wikipedia[çımey bıvurnê]
The children's game on diq.wikipedia should finally cease. We need more competent people and not self-statisticians and ignorant tempters. We are still waiting patiently for more positive development, but instead break the above mentioned people (they recognize who is meant by that) the power to themselves with their confused thoughts and play with the existing articles, as if it would be any forum page and not an encyclopedia. Their new game is dialect splitting. It occurs continuously such brainless ideas to light and it is not distracting. That's why other people remain far from this project. All others remain silent and take the event out without consistent action. Where will this lead us with these children? Dear People, come together, and move something a bit, so please don’t look always away to stand out! --Mirzali 21:59, 5 Nisane 2009 (UTC)
Xosere's infantile behavior is no longer bearable[çımey bıvurnê]
XOSERE, shall omit finally his infantile behavior. His cultural philistinism is gradually enough. This project is not his property. He modifies and deletes the articles as he wishes and he constitutes a barrier for all others. It is no longer bearable, and not to endure. --Mirzali 11:01, 7 Nisane 2009 (UTC)
We don't need a regionalist and racist as a sysop[çımey bıvurnê]
It is not acceptable that an ignorant fellow makes the hard-won project perish. What annoys me even more is that nobody is doing something against. This regionalist and racist person must either change his behavior or leave the sysop position. He must stop to change the articles how it fits to him. Allegedly, belong the aforementioned articles only him. These so far we have continued together. You can see it from the archive. How else should an article be further developed, if everyone explains it to his own property? What is it for an infantile behavior?
His arguments are irrelevant, because he contradicts himself every time. He also doesn’t publicly admit it, when he has even discovered his own errors after a while. He is such a cowardly person, who hides behind his computer, and nobody knows who he really is. Such a person should not have the upper hand in a project and shouldn’t require all others any rules. Especially, since he is definitely not competent in that language. He still has a lot to learn and do research. By depreciate from dubious sources, it is far from done. --Mirzali 10:20, 13 Gulane 2009 (UTC)
Our patience is at an end with Xosere![çımey bıvurnê]
This ignorant kid tries to introduce the Kurdish alphabet here. We can no longer tolerate it. He keeps us constantly on the development. It is damaging to the whole project enormously. He has to be finally removed from his sysop position. He can probably go to the Kurdish Wikipedia, if he so zealously fighting for Kurdish elements. He has lost nothing here. --Mirzali 14:50, 23 Tişrino Verên 2009 (UTC)
- If you can see in the old postings of me, i defended this guy previous. But I see now, that his ignorance destroys this project. Furthermore he is not powerful on this language, he can not even write a little sentence right and doesn't learn from his mistakes, because of his ignorance. He is even not able to build the plural in Zazaki right, his whole Zazaki consists of big grammer mistakes.
- And because of his inability to write and understand Zazaki, he supports Kurdists of Vate, they put into Zazaki kurdish words to create a sub-kurdisch dialect of Zazaki. Because he doesn't want to write with his broken Zazaki and want that the Vate-Kurdists take his job.
- The only thing which this guy can understand are simple sentences and if he see new words, he ignores them instead of learning them.
- We can not tolarete this person further. --AliErsoy 12:23, 5 Tişrino Peyên 2009 (UTC)
I think that such a discussion among us is not really constructive.We should try to find a solution insteed of barking at each other.There are three main dialects in Zazaki,which are more ore less standardised and which should be used in every part in my opinion. In that case I would suggest that every article should be written in these three main dialects. The spoken variants of the dialects of the alevi part is so similar, that it is not really important which variant(Dersim,Erzingan, Varto,Sêvaz etc.)should go in use. The dialects spoken in the southern part of Zazaistan are mostly common in use, too and the spoken variants of Xarput/Colig are also not very different in use,though there are the most different variants under these three dialects of Zazaki. In this way i would suggest that all articles should be written in all dialects.It can't be so complicated to find a common solution, can it???--Mansic 18:37, 27 Tişrino Peyên 2009 (UTC)
- He must disappear quickly from this project as a sysop. His impossible attitude just keeps us here to move forward. A totally unknown and unimportant personality can not abuse his position as a sysop in order to ruin this project from day to day. If he were an honorable and honest man, he would not oppose the publication of his personal informations. Who is he really? Why he is so afraid of the public? Thus, an insignificant and unknown person can not abuse a scientific institution for his political and personal interests.
- With his constantly changing demands, which are not scientifically defensible, as his last attempt by the introduction of the Kurdish alphabet. It has already been realized at the test project of Wiktionary Zazaki by him. (Please, see also my arguments against!).
- Our nation has been suffering rather from Kurdish and Turkish influences, and to vigorously defend against it. And this ignorant kid really wants to introduce, to dislike all of our people, the Kurdish alphabet. Furthermore, this nameless and unknown traitor is not powerful in the Zazaish language. He is a racist and separatist Kurdish sympathizer.
- What he probably thinks who he really is? Moreover, he insulted and cursed us in his private emails. That will not even go on a cowhide! This impudent rascal must soon leave our project. Wikipedia is an academic institution and is not a playground for kindergarten kids like him. It is not more a private matter, but it's about the future of our language. --Mirzali 05:25, 4 Kanun 2009 (UTC)