Karber vaten:Xoser/Arşiv 2

Tabloê "Xêr Amey"

Note: Bra Xosere, when new users join to the Zazakipedia, writing the table below to their message pages, is a good way to encourage them... --Belekvor 17:48, 23 Marte | Adare 2008 (UTC)

Square brackets

Bıra, I used square brackets because of the abbreviation after the main explaination and moreover because I wrote them in round brackets. Do you have another idea? --Mirzali 19:00, 5 Gucige | Sıbat 2008 (UTC)

Some country names

Hi bıra,

I think, it's not badly off to use an İ- in front of some country names. This usage is possibly from Turkish, but never mind. Because Turkish has at present an influence on Zazaki predominantly. Therefore we shouldn't build new names to spite Turkish, like our Kurdish friends do that. This will be just artificially.

But as everybody knows, Turkish borrowed many things from foreign languages and filled so its deficiencies with them. Even many words, which are mostly from Persian or Arabic in origin, and entered throughout Zazaki or Kurdish into Turkish more or less. Furthermore, for some words in Turkish dictionaries is a term as halkağzı "dialect" used, in order to not mention the Zazaish or Kurdish originality.

The surrounding languages like Turkish, Kurdish, Armenian, Azerbaijani, Persian and Arabic are more important than the others, territorially in favour of research and comparison for Zazaki. But Latin and Greek are also important for etymological reasons.

I looked into English Wikipedia and English etymology dictionary for (your meant words) Spain, Switzerland, Sweden and Scotland, and found some interesting clues.

--Mirzali 21:23, 11 Gucige | Sıbat 2008 (UTC)

Spain

from Anglo-French Espayne, from Late Latin Spania, from Classical Latin Hispania. The usual Old English form was Ispania.

• Latin: Hispania
• Greek: Ισπανία (İspania)
• Spanish: España

• Arabic: إسبانيا (´Asbāniyā)
• Persian: اسپانیا (Espānyā)
• Azeribaijani: İspaniya
• Kurdisch: Spanya
• Turkish: İspanya
• Armenian: Իսպանիա (İspania)

• Zazaki: İspanya (variants: Spanya (borrowed from Kurdish, probably))

--Mirzali 21:23, 11 Gucige | Sıbat 2008 (UTC)

Swiss

from Middle French Suisse, from Middle High German Suizer, from Suiz "Switzerland" (compare Switzer, archaic word for "a Swiss", and German Schweiz). Switzerland is named for Schwyz, one of its ancient cantons.

• Latin: Helvetia
• Greek: Ελβετία (Elbetia)

• Arabic: سويسرا (Swīsrā)
• Azerbaijani: İsveçrə
• Persian: سوئیس (Su’is)
• Armenian: Շվեյցարիա (Şvyeytsaria)
• Kurdisch: Swîsre
• Turkish: İsviçre

• Zazaki: İswiçre (variants: İswiçra, Swis)

--Mirzali 21:23, 11 Gucige | Sıbat 2008 (UTC)

Swede

from Low German, from Middle Low German Swede, back-formed from a source akin to Old English Sweoðeod, literally "Swede-people", from Sweon (plural) "Swedes" OldNorwegian, Old Swedish Sviar, Classical Latin Suiones). Sweden is from Middle Dutch Sweden, probably a dative plural of Swede (earlier in English Sweden was used of the people and 'Swedeland of the country). In Old English, the country was Sweoland or Sweorice (compare Old Norwegian sviariki, source of Swedish Sverige). The present English form of the country name emerged in Scottish (Swethin', 'Swadne, etc.). Swedish is recorded from 1632.

• Latin: Suecia
• Greek: Σουηδία (Souidia)

• Arabic: السويد (El-Swid)
• Azerbaijani: İsveç
• Persian: سوئد (Su’id)
• Armenian: Շվեդիա (Şvyedia)
• Kurdisch: Swêd
• Turkish: İsveç

• Zazaki: İsweç (variants: Swêd (borrowed from Kurdish, probably))

--Mirzali 21:23, 11 Gucige | Sıbat 2008 (UTC)

Scot

Old English Scottas (plural) "inhabitants of Ireland, Irishmen", from Late Latin Scotti, of uncertain origin, perhaps from Celtic (but answering to no known tribal name; Irish Scots appears to be a Classical Latin borrowing). The name followed the Irish tribe which invaded Scotland after the Romans withdrew from Britain, and after the time of Alfred the Great the Old English word described Irish who had settled in the northwest of Britain. "Scot, with its variants Scotch, Scottish, etc., may have been an Irish term of scorn (Scuit, pronounced shite); its ulterior origin is unknown."

• Latin: Scotia
• Greek: Σκωτία (Skotia)

• Arabic: إسكتلندا (´Askutlandā)
• Azerbaijani: Şotlandiya
• Persian: اسکاتلند (Eskātland)
• Kurdisch: Skotland
• Armenian: ?
• Turkish: İskoçya

• Zazaki: İskoçya

--Mirzali 21:23, 11 Gucige | Sıbat 2008 (UTC)

Ma be xêr di albazê delali! Fıkr u emegê sıma zaf rındo. Ez vaci, bıra Mirzali heqliyo. About the i-prothesis I have to say, that this is not only sprecific to Turkish but valid for the near east. It is an areal linguistic phenomen that the known language like Persian, Arabic, Turkish and also other don't accept consonant clusters like st, sp-, sk- etc. at the anlaut (first spelled syllable), therefore there is a prothetic vocal necessary like i- to fit to is own ohonetic system. Although old indo-iranian languages had a huge of words with consonat clusters, since the islamization of the area the inheritet words get a prothetic vocal, like in "stâ-" 'stay' (in old indoiranian) to New Persian "istâdan" 'to stay' (where the country suffix -istân is also derived from).

--Asmen, 19:17, 12 Gucige 2008 (CET)

Revision / Çım ra viyarnayış

Bıra Xosere, I changed the translation of revision as çım ra viyarnayış. I hope it's implying the precise meaning now. Otherwise we can also consult bıra Asmên referring to this. Greetings! --Mirzali 12:03, 8 Marte | Adare 2008 (UTC)

But only vurnayış doesn't make any sence. The meaning alone of this word (verb) is "to pass, undergo or get over" (Turkish: "geçirmek"), and would be wrong. Çım ra viyarnayış means "to scrutinize or look over" (Turkish: "gözden geçirmek). --Mirzali 07:00, 10 Marte | Adare 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, you are right bıra again. However, I think in this case "viyarnayış" would fit to there. --Mirzali 07:22, 10 Marte | Adare 2008 (UTC)

Deletion logs

Hi bıra,

why did you delete the articles of Standardizekerdena Zazaki and Zonê Ma Zazaki? I want to put these in order and add them again. --Mirzali 04:46, 10 Marte | Adare 2008 (UTC)

You are right, thus it's OK now! --Mirzali 06:50, 10 Marte | Adare 2008 (UTC)

Biological Taxonomy/Ciakerdiso(Abırnaiso) Biyolocik

Mabıxêrdi bra, sıma rê jü teklifê mı esto. Ma Zazaki de çıton/senên şikinime ke biyolociye de abırnais bıkerime.

İngılızki u Tırki u Kurdki de:

• Kingdom - Alem - Cîhan
• Division - Bölüm/Şube - Beş
• Class - Sınıf - Çin
• Order - Takım - Kom
• Family - Familya - Famîle
• Genus - Cins - Cins
• Species - Tür - Cure

Farski de çıton vanê ez ae nêzonen. Ez vono ke gereko Zazaki de nia bo;

• Homete (alem)
• Lızga (bölüm/şube)
• Ezbete (sınıf)
• Taxıme (takım)?
• Çê/Familya/Keye (familya)
• Cısn/Cıns (cins)
• Babet/Tewr (tür)

babeto bınên (alt tür, subspecies), çêo bınên/keyo bınên (alt familya)...

Fikrê şıma çıko/çıto..? --Belekvor 17:09, 22 Marte | Adare 2008 (UTC)

Hi bra , the word homete is used in Northern Zazaki and means alem in Turkish and Arabic. The word babet is used in Southern Zazaki (You can see it from Zazaki.de website, from Koyo Berz's dictionary) and means species (tür/çeşit in Turkish). Ezbete means a small group of a tribe (sub-tribe).. lızge/lızga means (tree) branch in English (şube/bölüm in Turkish classification), we can use it for the word division in biological classification. And all these words are original Zazaki. I think we should benefit from our original Zazaki words.

I will give an example; some words in Kurdish such as spas, rojhilat.. etc. are not conventional, but they want to create a national language so they have used those words. Similarly, bilgisayar (in Turkish) was created when computers started to being used. Now new words are started to be used in Zazaki, and we should create and improve our language by producing new Zazaki words whose original roots are in Zazaki, even they won't be conventional.--Belekvor 18:49, 22 Marte | Adare 2008 (UTC)

Sılam bırayêne, liste de yew xeta esta. Kurdki de "aile" "malbat"o, tiya rê seyr bıkerên:

http://legerin.ferheng.org/search.php?query=aile&lang=kurd2turk&Submit=L%C3%AAger%C3%AEn

Benim fikrime gelince: "aile" sözcügü icin "keye" kullanmak kocaman bir fakirlik getirir, hic bir zengin olarak sayilan dilde böyle sadelik yokdur. Insan bide hep nerde anlasin "aile" yada "ev" mi kastedildigi. Ben "aile" kelemesinin kullanmasini öneriyorum, zaten bu Arapca kökenlidir, Türkce degildir. Türkce kökenli olsaydi ben de karsi cikardim:

http://www.tdk.org.tr/TR/SozBul.aspx?F6E10F8892433CFFAAF6AA849816B2EF4376734BED947CDE&Kelime=aile

"Belokvor"un sayfasinda da dedigim gibi "çê" "ev" icin kullanilmamali, "keye" en orijinal ve hem de standard edilen varyantedir, direk Avestadan geliyor. "çê" sonradan olusmusdur.

Not: "aile" sözcügünün illah Öz Zazaca olmasini istiyorsaniz, ozaman bari Kürtlerin yaptigi gibi "ev" sözcügünün arkasina bi sonek koyun, "ev" ve "aile" sözcüklerini ayirtetmek icin. Örnek:

Kürtce: mal = "ev" demek, malbat = aile. --Dersimıc 17:33, 27 Marte | Adare 2008 (UTC)

Not 2: "Tür" kelimesi Türkce diye tabii ki "Babet" tercih edilsin, "Tür" Türkcedir:

• http://www.nisanyansozluk.com/search.asp?w=t%FCr&x=0&y=0
• http://www.tdk.org.tr/TR/SozBul.aspx?F6E10F8892433CFFAAF6AA849816B2EF4376734BED947CDE&Kelime=t%c3%bcr --Dersimıc 20:21, 28 Marte | Adare 2008 (UTC)

Anatolia and Iran

Hi bıra! For aught we can remain loyal to the originality of the words so long as they come up to the reality. Therefore we can't oppose strange words (like Anatoliya) in contrary to the naturalized words (like Anadoliye). No matter, if we want or not, Turkish has the more influence on Zazaki dominantly. We shouldn't be hostile to Turkish so much and so we can't exclude it completely. Remember, we belong to the mosaic of the so called Turkish complex. Furthermore the Turkish language grew out of many foreign influences and Zazas participate in this matter importantly.

I think, it fits better the word "İran" as a name of the state and "İrano Gırd" as a name of the region. We also have go with the current science. Archaic names are not important here.

---

Bıra you know, I wanted to not annoy you. It was just an argument, which I have expressed. You actually are right in some legal points. --Mirzali 19:29, 22 Marte | Adare 2008 (UTC)

Bıraenê, sairê ma Qemero Areiz Pılemoriye ra jü lawıka xo de vano:

kibara xo ra xatır waşt, bine [biyune] tever
verê çêweri [kêberi] de gureto mı ra, Tırkonê Anadoliye

Ez vanu, Anadoliye qeseyê da zaf newiye niya, yanê Zazaki de nia vaciya. Eke sıma Anatoliya dıha mınasıb vênenê, sıma zanê. --Asmên 22.3.2008, 21:00 (CET)

It is not very important whether it is new or not that new. It is an artificial word created for nationalistic ambitions. We cannot take their artificial words. --Xosere 01:12, 23 Marte | Adare 2008 (UTC)

Xêr Amey Box

Thank you so much, bıra. I will improve it, but it is OK for now..--Belekvor 16:36, 24 Marte | Adare 2008 (UTC)

Mrv Xoser bra

Mrb Xoser bra, Xeyle zemono ma ju bini nê di? Seninê weşê? Emşo mı tesadüfi ju xeta di perê Wikipedia Zazaki- Tarixe Zazayan dı. Ez ewnao qı ju merdı mi ê peri dı. Propaganda Kurdo kerda. Vato ma Kurdi mi, Wealate ma Kurdistano. Mı vat ez nê xeta raşti kıri, raştıki ya cı bınusi. Mı mısade de şıma wa. Gerçi şıma ra mı izni nê growtı hemo; Perê mı; [1] dı kısme Forumdı hevê çi grewt o ca. Ez texmin keno şıma nê qaryenê. Ju na çi; edrese mıno msn verin hack bi, o sevev ra ma piya xeyle zemone qali nê kerdi. E qı warzenê se edresê mıno nıkayin msn: ozer_oz@hotmail.com ra ma piya çı weqit tı mısait benê se ma qalo/qıso bıkımı. Kef weşiya bı monı. Ombazo re sılomo keno. Qar u gırwe şıma raşt bêro.--Peropiya 00:16, 28 Marte | Adare 2008 (UTC)

Newroj ti re xeyr bo

Bera Xoser, mi mosaferat bime, iraniki ziwunun şablon mevarek baboshe! ti email me ra biamey/bemue, mi adres OK heste --Parthava 14:15, 31 Marte | Adare 2008 (UTC)

Bureaucrat access

Hi bra, we need a bureaucrat in our wikipedia; actually we don't have any. Can you nominate yourself for bureaucrat position for the Zazaki Wikipedia. I told the user Peropiya to be a bureaucrat, but he doesn't seem to be interested in Wikipedia at all. If you want to be a bureaucrat, you need to nominate yourself in the community portal and Wikimedia. If you have any question, feel free to ask me? Thanks.

B.S.: Here is a page containing information about the position: Bureaucrat --Xosere 21:34, 21 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

OK bıra, I can became a bureaucrat for our wikipedia..But I should say that I will be absent after 1-2 months, because I will be abroad for 2-3 months..so maybe I won't be able to watch the Zazakipedia..For now OK, I can accept this job willingly... On the other hand, my english is not advanced for doing bureaucrat request..Can you prepare this and I will make copy-past it..Thanks..--Belekvor 21:59, 21 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

Bıra, they didn't accept our request..I need votes..help please..And I added your msn. Thanks..--Belekvor 22:11, 22 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

Mail

i wrote to you today two mails, to your xosere mail adress. please read them and answer. thank you. --Dersimıc 11:32, 23 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

i congratulate you to the brave step, thank you. --Dersimıc 16:45, 24 Nisane 2008 (UTC) i added now historic arguments here: http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zazakiyo_Standard#-en_.2F_-ene.2C_-eni

PS: "ish" is not the same as "en" (read my answer in the discussion page of zazakiyo standard) --Dersimıc 16:53, 24 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

sory again, i dont know that you come yesterday to msn, its were better if you wrote this with to me per mail. sorry --Dersimıc 11:02, 27 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

Infinitives end with -ene

Dear bıra Xosere, the feminine output -e must be there. Please get the changes back for infinitives. Greetings! --Mirzali 17:17, 27 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

the "e" ending in feminin rectus is unnecesasry, because of such features nobody accept your standard zazaki. --Dersimıc 18:32, 27 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

i changed ki to zi and nus to nush

Because, they are the most original variants:

http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Xeyr_amey#i_want_arguments_for_your_choose --Dersimıc 14:27, 28 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

i deleted now the "dê" at "sistemê dê girdio", if they again use this, then i add the central zaza system to the brackets:

http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Xeyr_amey#if_do_you_use_.22sistem.C3.AA_de_girdiyo.22.2C_then_i_put_the_central_zazaki-system

same right for all!

i transciped your request with the vate standards:

http://diq.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3AXeyr_amey&diff=30778&oldid=29388

i put the "y"'s, the "sh", the "zi" as in vate standards. and i replaced "awa" from northern zazaki with "aya" from southern zazaki, because some can understand "awa" as "water is". also vate use "aya". --Dersimıc 17:16, 28 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

Thanks bro. --Xosere 20:06, 28 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

a question, what is "to can" in your dialect

what say to example "ben yaza biliyorum", in northern dialect: ez şikina bınusi or ez bese kena bınusi. what is this in your dialect? thank you. --Dersimıc 17:00, 28 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

new question: what was "mountain / dağ" in your dialect? thanks --Dersimıc 17:21, 28 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

"Ez eşkeno bınuşi" and "ko or "kue" --Xosere 20:05, 28 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

can you ask your prof. what was "mast" (yoghurt) in old or middle iranian languages? because its not good, to put here sanskrit examples. at iranian words are only old or middle iranian relevant. --Dersimıc 10:39, 29 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

new question: is in your dialect "honey" > "egmên"? --Dersimıc 11:14, 29 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

ps: ask please your profesor also, what was kurdish "jî" for "also" in old or middle iranian languages, thanks.

ps2: ask him also what was new persian "gorosne" (hungry) in avesta, old persian and middle persian. i want know if this was with "s" or with "ş". --Dersimıc 12:44, 29 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

ps3: ask him please also, what was kurdish "ketin", zazaki "kewten" for "to fall" in avesta or other old or middle iranian langauge. thank you. --Dersimıc 12:56, 29 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

ps4: ask him also, what was "rasht" for "right" in parthian. because only in parthian was this with "sh" so far i know. thanks --Dersimıc 12:57, 29 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

new question: what do you say in your dialect to "masal"? sanik, shanik oder estanik? --Dersimıc 12:24, 29 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

new question: what is "o dikiyor" in your dialect, in northern: o derzeno. --Dersimıc 13:32, 29 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

new question: sorry that i question so much, but its imporant, what do you say to "henüz, daha", in northern dialect: hona, example: hona çıniyo = henüz yokdur. hona nêame = henüz/daha gelmedi. --Dersimıc 13:37, 29 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

You asked me a lot of questions. Honey is "egmin" in my dialect. For Rasht read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashnu There is a divinity in Zoroastrianism called Rashnu. In middle Persian, it is "rashn", it is sh in Middle Persian too.

but i read in the etymology book of paul horn, that was in middle persian "rast" and also in avesta. therefore i am confused. in this article dont stand, what the meaning of "rashn" was? its the best that you ask your prof or search in etymolgy sources. thanks.

ps: also the nisanyan etymology dictionary say, that was in "efa" (old persian) and "ave" (avesta) rast:

http://www.nisanyansozluk.com/search.asp?w=rast&x=0&y=0

ps2: asmen said to me before month, that was only in parthian "rasht", therefore we need the parthian word as example. --Dersimıc 15:39, 29 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

I think you should use Parthian version. But I ask my professor. --Xosere 15:41, 29 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

Hikaye is "hikaye" in my dialect unfortunately. O derzeno: "wı ho derzeno" or " ya ha derzena". Sorry I don't know what is "hona" in my dialect. I ask your questions to my professor --Xosere 15:41, 29 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

can i change in the list, the "xo" to "xwe":

http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zazakiyê_Fonetikio_Standard#x_.2F_h.2C_xu.2C_xw

the arguments: http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Zazakiyê_Fonetikio_Standard

because there are no arguments to make "xo" standard, so how the people who dont use "xo" can accept "xo" without linguistic arguments and reasons? what do you use in your dialect for "xo"? --Dersimıc 15:51, 29 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

i added the parthian and avesta words for "xo":

http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zazakiyê_Fonetikio_Standard#x_.2F_h.2C_xu.2C_xw

"o" is only an we > o process, "o" ist not original. its like ew -> o.

what variant we should take, xwe or hwe? --Dersimıc 18:03, 29 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

I think just leave it as "xo" for now. We discuss it later. This is not a big issue. --Xosere 18:05, 29 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

we can take also "hwe", if you want the variant with "h". in proto iranian was this: "hwe", then in avesta "hve", then in middle persian: xwe, in parthian: wxe, in gorani: we, in kurdisch: xwe. new persian: xod, zazaki: xo. "xo" is a new persian loanword i think. the original zazaki is "hwe" (do exist) or "we"(dont exist).

the reason why iam for the "hwe" version is, because we needs argument that everybody can accept a variant, and nobody of the "xwi, xwe, xu" speakers do accept "xo", because we have not historic reasons or arguments for "xo". --Dersimıc 18:15, 29 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I understand. Let's don't stuck here. This is a drop in a gallon of water. What is Vate's standard by the way? xo? --Xosere 18:23, 29 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

Yes "xo" because they dont work linguistic, they make also "roj", "wisar,", "cini" (woman) to standard while they are not the most original variant, they make the standards so: 10-20 vate workers do VOTE without linguistic reasons, with PERSONAL reasons, as example if the most say "word y should be standard" then "word y" will be standard, without reasons or arguments. The most Zazas are bölgecis, how can accept people who use "xwe, xu, xwi, hu, ho, hwe" the variant "xo", if we have not historic or linguistic arguments? --Dersimıc 18:26, 29 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

Just keep it that way since they also use xo. We talk about it later. you can put a question mark in place of xo table. --Xosere 18:37, 29 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

They use also "roj" and other words they are not original. why we should make at "xo" an exception if we take in the other words the most original variants? because of vate? --Dersimıc 18:39, 29 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

I put I a question mark there. Don't worry. We are not linguists either --Xosere 18:41, 29 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

ok, thanks, we are not linguist, but we know the linguistic reasons. and our people can accept only a variant, if we have arguments and reasons. you also are sad about that here in wikipedia nobody accept "zi" while "zi" is more original than "ki". vate build on kurdish and not look to the old iranian or middle iranian words. --Dersimıc 18:45, 29 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

I am really confused. Just calm down little bit bro :). The original must be wo, so whatever you do is not going to be original anyway. Probabaly Zazaki has started to divert to its way before the Avesta language. It is neither Parthian, nor Pehlewi, nor old Persian, nor Avesta. It is something different, a Northwestern development. We don't know anything about that language. The first we can look is Parthian, Gorani, Talishi, Old Azari, and Caspian --Xosere 18:51, 29 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

Why "wo", which historic sources say this? Every linguist say "we". You can read in every linguistisc sources: old iranian: hwe, avesta: hve, middle persian: xwe, parthian: wxe. from where you have "wo"? in gorani it is: we. the "xod" in new persian, is only an "we" -> "o" process, "o" is not original. In Zazaki there exist now this variants: xwe, hwe, xwı, xo, ho, xu. And what are the most originals of this variants if we look to old iranian and middle iranian? --Dersimıc 19:04, 29 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

Okay it is "we". Just put there whichever you think is suitable. I don't have any idea on this issue. --Xosere 19:05, 29 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

Our personal ideas are not important bira. If we go to the personal ideas, then we have a big problem. Then come 400 people who have all own personal ideas. we cant take "we", because nobody use or understand this. we have only the chance to take hwe or xwe. and "hwe" ise more original, therefore "hwe". we use also in our dialect "xo". but many zazas (they are really many) use also other variants (xwı, xu, hu, ho). they cant accept "xo" without reasons. if you ask your prof, then he say this: avesta: hva/xva, old iranian: hwa, middle persian: xwa, parthian: wxa. in zaza alphabet (because "a" in persian is in zaza alphabet "e", â is a): hve, hwe, xwe, wxe. --Dersimıc 19:14, 29 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

Okay, then put hwe. Why do you think that people will accept hwe while they don't accept orher simple rules? --Xosere 19:24, 29 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

Why we should make a variant they is not original to standard? And how we can create a standard, if we have not linguistic arguments? The people can only can accept the standards if they see arguments. And until to this time, nobody create such lists with historic roots. If i did demonstrate as example to ZazaYasar what was "hewn", "gırewt", "vewr" in old or middle iranian, he was quiet, because he saw the arguments. we have not other chance, what we can do else? its only this way possible. we can win in this way. but if we make standards of personal ideas, then we can only lose. --Dersimıc 19:37, 29 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

---

i took now "ho" to the standard http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zazakiyê_Fonetikio_Standard#x_.2F_h.2C_xu because its the most original version. asmen is right in the issue that variants like "xuı" is only changing of "o", like ko > kue, rot -> ruet etc. the "x" in "xo" is persian/kurdish influence (kurdish: xwe, xo, persian: xod), in nothing other zaza word exist this "x" at words who were in old iranian "hw". you can see as example at "hewn" who is frome old iranian "hvefne / hwefne" again "h", which is in kurdish "xewn" and in persian "xab".

also linguists say and asmen says this: h / w = northwestiranian, xw / x = southwestiranian, at louds who are in proto-iranian "hw / hv". but there is no variant in zaza exist with "hw" for "self", therefore "ho" should be standard. its also understandable like "xo". and the best is, that the lehcecis have then fewer arguments to declare zaza to kurdish and our people give zazaki more worth, if zazaki is more independent . ;) what dou you think? --Dersimıc 21:09, 30 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

Vurnayışê boti

Ma gere/gani hurendia "Bot değişikliği Ekleniyor" dı "Vurnayışê boti ama (ume, ame) nustene" bınuşê (bınuşime). Tı eşkenê ena cumle açarnê Zazaki?

Bıra tı ra yew reca mı esta: Wikipedia Zazaki dı, ma gere/gani Zazaki bınuşê. Ez otir zana kı, tı Zazaki hol nêzanê, feqet çıqa kı Zazaki zanenê hentı bınus..(Even you cannot speake Zazaki well, please try to speake Zazaki instead of English. when you cant write a sentence in Zazaki, ok, you can turn to English. I think by this way, you can improve your Zazaki skills)..

Also we must focus on writing new articles. we must stop spending time about standard Zazaki of wikipedia. we must write new articles instead of discussion about it. Best wishes.:)--Belekvor 22:39, 30 Nisane 2008 (UTC)

"nas" for "tanimak" is not arabic

The "nas" in Kurdish and Northern Zazaki is only a shorted version of "shi-nas", its have not relation to arabic "nass" which have other meaning:

http://www.nisanyansozluk.com/search.asp?w=nas&x=0&y=0

nas/nass- nass [xiv] ~ Ar naSS [#nSS msd.] 1. kesin ve nihai olma, 2. Kuran veya hadiste kesin önerme < Ar naSSa yükseltti, kaldırdı, sonuna kadar götürdü, kanıtladı,nihai otoriteye dayandırdı

In Zazaki are "nas" and "şınas" the variants of the same word, "nas" is only shorted version. Also "var" in Turkish have no realation with avesta "vâr" (water). Its normal if words are in the loud have similiraty, the important thing is the meaning. and the meaning of northern zazaki / kurdish "nas" is completly different from arabic "nas". --Dersimıc 19:26, 1 Gulane 2008 (UTC)

ok thank you bra. --Dersimıc 16:25, 6 Gulane 2008 (UTC)

welcome text

i write this in turkish, cünkü inglizcem yeterince yüksek seviyede degil kendimi rahat ifade etmek icin. "welcome"-yazisindaki anlmadigin bütün sözcükleri lütfen buraya yaz, sizin lehcede nasil olduklarini aristiralim diye. bazi sözcükler degisikse, ozaman belki orta yol bula biriz. --Dersimıc 16:32, 8 Gulane 2008 (UTC)

more examples

i have here more examples for you:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer_Diskussion:Shado#c.2C_.C3.A7

i am tired and busy, therefore put you to the list, if you have time. if you have questions for the meaning, then ask me here. --Dersimıc 20:23, 10 Gulane 2008 (UTC)

hi, i leaved this site. this is my last post:

i put things like "dost", because i calculate in my site how much northwest and howmuch southwest elements have kurdish persian and zazaki. my site have an another topic. "viceno ro" / "ro viceno" = he sifts. rêc- = presense steme of "akmak". serpez = in turkish "dalak", in english "spleen, milt". "vez"- = presense steme for "run", o vezeno = he runs, "vaz dano" (koshu veriyor) is only changed version, the most original is "o vezeno" and in the past time "o veşt" = koshdu, "ey vaz da" is only "o koshu verdi". zehr = turkish zehir, in zazaki "jar". you msut not put all words of them, only words who you need. therefore i give the link.

i have the word "diyan" of asmeno bewayir, he say, this is beside arabic "fek" in using, but for other meaning. but you dont must put southwestiranian words, because your topic is different, my topic is = calculate sw and nw elements in the languages (therefore the points). --Dersimıc 11:41, 14 Gulane 2008 (UTC)

hi, a question: what is "gelmek" in your dialect? umeyış or umayış? thanks. and what is "sen hoshgeldin" and "ben geldim"? --Dersimıc 12:45, 16 Gulane 2008 (UTC)

"umeyış" and "tı xer ume". --Xosere 16:14, 16 Gulane 2008 (UTC)

tesekkürler, bizim kuzeyliler yine kuzeye yakin olsun diye bir orijinal olmiyan varyanteyi tercih etmisler. oysa asmen seneler önce "ameyen"in en orijinal oldugunu kac forumda yazmisdi, "amayen"i "ameyen"e degistirdim:

http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zazakiyê_Fonetikio_Standard#a_.2F_o.2C_u --Dersimıc 16:29, 16 Gulane 2008 (UTC)

new question: are there also the variants "heger" or "eger" in the central dialects? whic variants for "if" do you know in zazaki? thanks. --Dersimıc 16:32, 16 Gulane 2008 (UTC)

We use mostly "eka". "eger" or "eg" is also used, but it is arabic. --Xosere 18:05, 16 Gulane 2008 (UTC)

hi, eger is not arabic, its iranic, look:

http://www.nisanyansozluk.com/search.asp?w=e%F0er&x=0&y=0

http://www.tdk.org.tr/TR/SozBul.aspx?F6E10F8892433CFFAAF6AA849816B2EF4376734BED947CDE&Kelime=e%c4%9fer

ps: the "a" in perso-arabic-latin script means "e" in zazaki, a = e, â = a, e = ê.

ok, i will write in english. --Dersimıc 18:10, 16 Gulane 2008 (UTC)

new question: do you know what the southern zazas do use for "if"? thanks. --Dersimıc 18:12, 16 Gulane 2008 (UTC)

I don't know. --Xosere 18:27, 16 Gulane 2008 (UTC)

thank you brader

its was very difficult for me, because my zazaki ist not so god. thank you for your help. --Dersimıc 21:18, 16 Gulane 2008 (UTC)

ok, zaf sıpas kenan, şew weş. --Dersimıc 22:06, 16 Gulane 2008 (UTC)

xo vs. ho, hewte vs. hefte

hi bra, i think, we should replace this kurdish loanword "xo" with the pure zazaki word "ho" everywhere, in the templates, in the logo, welcome text etc. its also a part of the standard wikipedia zazaki. and its will help us against the kurdish assimilation, its were a good step for the future. its not artifical, because this variant is using by many people and its the most original variant, the proto-indoeuropean "s" (self, sweet, seven etc.) changed in iranian directly to "h" (as in zaza: des -> kurdish/persian: deh), the "x" of kurdish and persian came later (in the middle iranian periode). and "xo" in zazaki ist definitly kurdish influence, you can see at "hewn", that the right zaza form for old iranian "hv" is: w (wesh, werd etc.) or h (hewn). in kurdish and persian: x (xorden, xwardin, xosh, xwesh) or again x (xewn, xew, xab). also asmen didnt say something against "ho". because the history shows, that is the most original variant. --Dersimıc 16:43, 17 Gulane 2008 (UTC)

ps: its were good to create an own box in the start page for "Zazakiyê Wikipediyayo Standard" with links inside boxes like here: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accueil or here http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ana_Sayfa --Dersimıc 16:46, 17 Gulane 2008 (UTC)

---

Ps2: Do the variant "hewte" for "weak" really exist? So far i know do all Zazas use "hefte"? In the real speaking if anybody use "hewte" for "weak", the people cant understand this. If we cant change "dest" with "zest", "serxoş" with "serweş", then i think, that its not possible to replace "hefte" with "hewte", because nobody can understand this in the real speaking as "weak". and its not really a loanword, because zazaki changed the middle iranian "f" to "w" in a later time. i dont think, that zazaki changed old iranian "p" direct to "w", because zazaki exist since 5. century AC, all middle iranian languages had this "f", the "w" comes in the new iranian periode in some language as zazaki, but also sorani. before this time was zazaki only an dialect of parthian or similiar language. also the sorani kurdish changed the "heft" for "seven" to "hewt", but kurmanci kurdish let "heft", or sorani kurdish changed the middle iranian keft to > kewt as zazaki. the separating between sorani and kurmanci is only ca. 700 years old. there are still zaza-dialects as in aksaray, they use "haft" for "seven" (but this is not important, because they are 10-20 persons). we can see if we look to the history of iranian langauges, that zazaki and sorani changed "f" to "w".

"hewte" for "weak" is anyway a word which nobody do know. this is the problem. if "hefte" were an turkish or arabic word, then you were right with the changing. --Dersimıc 20:03, 17 Gulane 2008 (UTC)

I have final exams till thursday. I have to study for them. I'll get back to you on Friday. --Xosere 06:43, 18 Gulane 2008 (UTC)

thanks to putting the michael jackson article to the home-page. --Dersimıc 17:12, 26 Gulane 2008 (UTC)

labele, a word which nobody can understand

if asmen says that "labele" is also arabic, why we use this then?? please look here:

http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Xeyr_amey#nobody_can_understand_.22labele.22

i dont see a sence in a using of ARABIC word who nobody can understand. why we dont use the knowened arabic wods like "ema, feqat, ancax". what is in "labele" so much better if "labele" is also arabic? if this were iranic i were understand it. --Dersimıc 14:41, 28 Gulane 2008 (UTC)

ps: dont understand me false, i know that asmen changed again to "labele". --Dersimıc 14:41, 28 Gulane 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you on this issue.--Xosere 04:20, 29 Gulane 2008 (UTC)

the logo

hi, its were nice, if you change in the logo the "xosere" to "hosere" for a step to a better future for zazaki. have no fear, we have the historic arguments, nobody can say anything. everybody, every linguist do know that "hv" is older then "xv" at PIE "sw" in iranic. in old avsta was this "hvet", then in new avesta xvet, middle persian xwet, parthian wxed, even in old persian was this with "h". "h" is older, therefore: ho is the most original variant. and what do say the people of zazaki insitute?: its necessary to take the most original variants. therefore its totally legitime to take "hosere". --Dersimıc 16:12, 28 Gulane 2008 (UTC)

PS: i asked asmen about this issue in his personal page, but he dont answerd me, instead of this he canceld your changes without any reason. because he self know that "h" is older. --Dersimıc 16:14, 28 Gulane 2008 (UTC)

I don't know how to edit a picture. Can you help me, or know somebody can help us? You need to change the writing of this picture: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/Wikipedia-logo-en.png

If you can help us, it would be great. --Xosere 04:19, 29 Gulane 2008 (UTC)

yes i can it. but i need the font file of this font, or the font name (if this already in windows exist). --Dersimıc 10:55, 29 Gulane 2008 (UTC)

i created the logo

here:

Dosya:Hosere.png

Help

Please, could you translate this article onto Zazaki, please? A stub is enough. If you want to translate any article onto Spanish, Catalonian or Galician, tell it to me please. Chabi

Bureaucrate and bots

Bıra what do you think about the following message ----Belekvor^{mı rê mesaj bırusne} 16:07, 1 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)? ==>

"Could you please take a look the bots running around without botflag flooding the Recent Change list. And do what you think should be done. I suggest blocking or giving botflags or warnings or requesting that they ask for a botflag. User:CarsracBot 15:45, 1 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)"

---

Pela Seri

Hi bıra, I just tried to see different appearances to create a new and modern Pela Seri. Now bıra I will sleep, see you tomorrow..You, me and Dersimıc , we can create a nice Pela Seri. I am waiting for suggestions..----Belekvor^{mı rê mesaj bırusne} 04:54, 5 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

Monthly meetings

Hi bira, can we have monthly meeting starting this weekend? You, me, Asmen, Mirazali and also Dersimic should come and talk about issues. This will make our job much more easier. Better communication will create a better Wikipedia. I'll contact to Asmen and Mirzali tonight. Do you have a hotmail account? We will probably use MSN's messenger. --Xosere 02:05, 7 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

Mabıxêrdi (Mrb, sılam) bıra, msnê mı belekvor@hotmail.com .You are right...we should talk about issues. However, everbody is busy. I dont know how we can contact to each other..Asmen is busy, Mirzali has health problems..I will be absent soon, for 2-3 months...We should invite new Zazaki-speakers from the Zaza forums..We have 150-170 users, but everybody writes too little..Contributions are not enough, unfortunately..I think we shouldnt warn new users that dont know standard Zazaki to write Standard Zazaki. Every new users should have opportunity to write in their own dialects..Then we will organise their writings...We need many new users to create new titles.. ----Belekvor^{mı rê mesaj bırusne} 12:45, 8 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

Pela Seri

Hi bıra, I created the new version of Pela Seri by benefitting from En, De, Ku, and Tr wikipediyas. Please dont change this version for a month. However if want, you can improve it..The old Pela Seri was not nice..I think this version is OK. Bımane weşiye dı..----Belekvor^{mı rê mesaj bırusne} 02:02, 9 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

Zaza and Kurdish Alphabet

Hi, i want to informed you:

Perso-Arab-Latin Alphabet: â, a, e
is in Zaza Alphabet: a, e, ê

Alphabet of indoeuropean languages: e
Is in Zaza Alphabet: ê

Because ê in Zaza Alphabet means = normal e.
But e in Zazaki is not normal "e", e is = ae, its the ə of azeri alphabet.

Here made a kurd the same mistake and diri cleared up him:

http://northerniraq.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2972

again comparison:

Person-Arabo-Latin: e
Zazaki: ê
Kurdish: ê
Indoeuropean languages: e

Parso-Arabo-Latin: a, â
Zazaki: e, a
Kurdish: e, a

in perso-latin real a is = â. "ae" is = a.

Paul Horn also use for the new Persian examples the zaza and kurdish writing system, but for old iranian examples the perso-latin alphabet, because all linguists use this alphabet for old iranian examples. so, if in old iranian examples (with old i mean only "old" the time period) things like vaen, then its zaza alphabet "veên", if there standing "kartan" for pehlevi, then its in zazaki alphabet "kerten". because the "e" in zaza alphabet ist not real e, its "ae". the real e is in zaza and kurdish alphabet: ê.

if in an arabo-latin text stands "ammā" (but), then is the zazaki transcibiton: emma.

if you ask a persian about this issue, he can not answer this correclty. because persians do know NOTHING about the zaza and kurdish writing system. if this is unbelievable for you, you can also ask emanuel kurdistan or asmen. ony kurds and zazas can know, whats the letters in zazaki and kurdish do mean. because the zaza and kurdish alphabet have other letters for the sounds as the perso-latin-alphabet. --Dersimıc 20:23, 9 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

another example:

avesta word for "seven" is in perso-latin alphabet: hapta, in zaza alphabet: hepte. therefore is the variant "hewt" standard and not "hawt". and threfore its so imporant to write all examples in the standard-page in the zaza alphabet, that not anybody come and ask "why is not hawt standard". --Dersimıc 20:28, 9 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

ok, i will make it

ok bra, i will make it, if iam finish. --Dersimıc 13:50, 10 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

It is better to do it now. You don't have to goback al the time. You can check the history of main page to see month names. --Xosere 13:52, 10 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

Ok bıra We will redirect them bıra, after finishing..----Belekvor^{mı rê mesaj bırusne} 13:54, 10 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

ok, should i put the variants in the text in brackets or should i also change this in the titlename? or also in the calender-box? --Dersimıc 13:55, 10 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

You should do it everywhere. This are the things that makes others pissed off. --Xosere 13:56, 10 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

but in the calendar-table there is no place to take as example all this words "Ekime, Menga Başaği, Paizia Wertêne, Payıze, Payızo Wertên" for http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_Tişrino_Verên , and if i change the titlename, then the system in the start page dont can link to this month?? or can you change the system? if yes, which titlenames i should use? --Dersimıc 13:58, 10 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

I mean not all of them. The ones that are on the system. You can see those names if you look at the history of the main page here: http://diq.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pela_Seri&action=history

I also wrote the names above already. It needs to be this way. Mirzali went to his own way at that time. But I changed system messages, and I wrote them here for you just above. --Xosere 14:03, 10 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

The system will not see your article anyway. because the title is different. It will be red on the main page. The system won't recognize your article when the time comes. --Xosere 14:04, 10 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

ok i understand, then please write here all names of the monthes of your system. thanks. --Dersimıc 14:05, 10 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

thank you for the names. i will change it. --Dersimıc 14:09, 10 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

a question: Paiza Veren/keskelun, Paizo werteyen/Trisno werteyen, Paizo peyen/Tirisno peyen <<< should here not the words "keskelun" and "trisno" with "ş"? and should the word "trisno" not > Tişrino? and its also imporant to write it with big or little letters. are this words in the spelling correct?

Kanune Veren/Qagande <and here, i thought the right writing for this is "Gağande"? --Dersimıc 14:13, 10 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

edit and the right form is "Kanuno Verên". --Dersimıc 14:15, 10 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

edit 2: so far i know is also peyên with "ê" the right form. and her standas "payızo wertên" and not "werteyen": http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tişrino_Verên --Dersimıc 14:19, 10 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

no problem, its were good if you create a dicussion page for this topic to disciss about this. --Dersimıc 14:29, 10 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

i opened: http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Zazakiyê_Wikipediyao_Standard#Month_names --Dersimıc 15:13, 10 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

the verb göndermek in central zazaki

hi a question: what is the verb "göndermek" in the infinitive in central dialect. thanks. in northern zazaki: rusnayene = göndermek. --Dersimıc 15:54, 10 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

In central Zazaki, it is "şawıtış". There is also "rasnayış", which means "to reach" or "to mature". --Xosere 05:21, 11 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

ok thanks. the meeting idea is good. --Dersimıc 10:28, 11 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

i opened now a chapter for the standardization:

http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Zazakiyê_Wikipediyao_Standard#Standardization

i think, word-combinations are really needless. we should use only real names and not combinations as "sonbaharin bashi, yazin önü etc." and other combinations like verbs etc. --Dersimıc 10:59, 11 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

the admin of the turkish wikipedia changes something in the code, please look in internet explorer 7, if the welcome-box have now a normal width: http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartışma:Ana_Sayfa#Internet_Explorer_hersey_hatali_g.C3.B6steriyor.21.21.21 --Dersimıc 11:27, 11 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know, I'll check it. --Xosere 14:10, 11 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

karekteran zazaki

its were nice if you change this, thanks:

--Dersimıc 15:13, 11 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

this is important, because the most zazas have a turkish keyboard. --Dersimıc 15:14, 11 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

here you can copy the turkish letters: http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Türk_Alfabesi --Dersimıc 15:14, 11 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I'll add it to our discussion items for the saturday meeting. --Xosere 06:22, 12 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

Hi, i think, its not make sence do dicuss about the Alphabet. The Zaza Alphabet is accepted now from the most Zazas and i see not any problems in the zaza alphabet. This letters " Ĝ ĝ" are not exist in any keyboard. The correct letters in the Zaza Alphabet are: Ğ ğ. Yes, also turks use this letters, but turks use also letters as "ş" or "ç". Its most optimal thing to use letters, they are exist in the turkish keyboards. Because the most Zazas have turkish keyboards. --Dersimıc 11:08, 12 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

But if you see some problems, then we can disscuss it in the meeting, as you said. --Dersimıc 11:13, 12 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

Ciwayış

Hi, do you mean with "Ciwayış" "Life"? if yes. Then its the spelling false. The right spelling were:

• Cıwiyayış

In no dialect exist the variant "Ciwayış", its also from grammer false. The variants they are exist are:

• Cuyayış
• or the most original variant: Cıwiyayış (in Avesta begins with: cīv-)

Fragments of the word:

Cu-ya-yış, Cıwi-ya-yış

This "ya" defines the past time. "Cu" and "cıwi" are the verb stemes, therefore its writing: cıwi-n-o = he lives. --Dersimıc 18:56, 13 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

You can see this "a" or "ya" (after vocal) for the past time also in this verbs:

zan-a = bildi, ters-a = korktu, veci-ya = çıkti etc.

its an grammatic mistake if you let this "a" or "ya".

So:
cıwi-ya = yaşadı, cıwi-n-o = yaşiyor, bı-cıwi-yo = yaşasın, bı-cıwi-ye =yaşa! cıwi-ya-yen = yaşamak, cıwi-ya-yış = yaşam, yaşış. --Dersimıc 19:47, 13 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the correction and the info. --Xosere 02:45, 14 Hezirane 2008 (UTC)

Pural without Izafe

Hi, i write this, that you learn it:

If there is no Izafe, then you build the plural in every dialect with the suffix -i, after vocal -y. Examples:

portali = portallar, bıray = kardeşler, desti = eller, persi = sorular

but in the vocatife you build the plural again diferent, suchwise:

bırayêne! = kardeşler!, wayêne! = bacılar!

And in Izafe:

rectus: portalê mı = portallarim, bırayê mı = kardeslerim, destê mı = ellerim, persê mı = sorularim
obliquus: portalanê mı, bırayanê mı, destanê mı, persanê mı
or in many dialects obliquus: portalan mı, destan mı, persan mı

Yes, its confusing, if rectus plural izafe have the same suffix as rectus masculine singular. Its were better, to use always "anê" in rectus and in obliquus. But are there really dialects, they use always this "an" in the both times? If yes we can make it so:

rectus and obliquus: portalanê mı, bırayanê mı, destanê mı, persanê mı
or suchwise: portalan mı, destan mı, persan mı

i added this problem to the meeting-list:

http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Portalê_cemaeti/Wikipediya_Zazaki_Adminstrative_Meetings/June_14%2C_2008

şuk?

hi, do the variant şuk really exist? i heard until this time onyl suk? --Dersimıc 12:00, 17 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

What does şuk mean? --Xosere 14:06, 17 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

its original variant is suke (fem) and suk (masc.) ..it means "city".----Belekvor^{mı rê mesaj bırusne} 14:11, 17 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it means "city", and in every region is "suk" in using. --Dersimıc 14:16, 17 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

Okay. Let's use "suk" then. --Xosere 02:38, 18 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

Hi. The variant "şüke" is used in Hozat, in other verniculars: suke, sûk(e). It's a arabic loanword "sûq سوق" 'bazar'. Asmên 00:50, 22ê Hezirane 2008 (CET)

wow thank you bra asmen. the pure zazaki word is "şarıstan", right? --Dersimıc 11:08, 23 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

Bot changes

Why are the bot changes in Turkish, but not in Zazaki? Can you change this messages into Zazaki such as following sentences..

• İnterwiki ilawe beno..(bot degişikliği ekleniyor)
• İnterwiki wedariyeno..(bot degisikliği kaldırılıyor)

---

Belekvor^{mı rê mesaj bırusne} 23:13, 18 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

why qise?

Hi, why you changed "qese" to "qise" while "qese" is to original nearer? this is the same mistake with "hama" which asmen made, why you are then against him, if you make the same mistake. without any reasons we can not create standards.

All people of North Zazaistan do use "qese, qesi, qeşi". The variant "qese" does exist really. So why we should use qise instead of qese? Because qese is from northern and qise from southern? why central and southern zazas must always think that everyhting from northern were false? northern zazaki is the dialect which conserved the vocals better than central or southern zazaki. every dialect have original attribtues. --Dersimıc 15:17, 19 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

I deleted qese/qise, because my source for avesta (xesa) for this word is a kurdish writer. We should wait until asmen say something clearness. maybe qese comes from arabian qesan. also the variant "qesan bike" exist in dersim kurmanci. --Dersimıc 15:26, 19 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

i deleted this unnecessary discussion that not other users do write something and the discussion getting lenger.

Qıse is from Arabic qiṣṣa قصّة tale. Due to the "i" it's nearer to the original than "qese" --Asmên, 00:55, 22ê Hezirane 2008 (CET)

thank you bra asmen. --Dersimıc 10:38, 23 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

Pela Procey

hi, the right spelling is: pela projey The stnadard is "proje", because "j" is here nearer to original, it comes frome latin proyektum. --Dersimıc 11:52, 23 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

look :

http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Zazakiyê_Wikipediyao_Standard/Standardê_çekuyanê_ğeriban#j_.2F_c.2C_z

It is corrected. --Xosere 15:19, 23 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

Special tables

Hi, its here in the Zazaki WIkipedia possible to create such tables with "show"-function?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:United_States_Template_Group

if yes, how i can this create? if no, can you add this function? thanks. --Dersimıc 13:16, 23 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

if were for this intentition good:

http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delıl_Xıdır

i wanted create such table with "open"-function to right. we can then use such tables in every article at words who is not understanble of all dialects or at words they are in the sounding different. then:

- then can everybody learn the standard variants
- then everybody can understand the articles better.
- everybody can learn then words they are in some dialects completly different.

The title of this table should be "To fehm nêkerd?", that everybody do understand the question and click to them and that the box doesnt destroy the layout of the article. And beside the button [seyr ke] that everybody understand this, because i think the variant "niya dayene" does not exist in your dialect. and "qayt kerdene" means = to attend to so./sth. (birisine bakmak) and not "look". "bıvêne" means only "gör", i dont think, that it have the same meaning as in english. --Dersimıc 14:22, 23 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

I think it is a good idea. It is possible to do that. You need to see templates there and understand how they work and copy-paste them here. Then you will have it here. --Xosere 15:19, 23 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

i try it, but without sucess. can you make it? its really hard for me. --Dersimıc 15:24, 23 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

It takes a lot of time to do somethin complex like this. I am busy all this week. I don't have time to do it. You can do it. Just spend more time on it. You will eventually do it. --Xosere 15:32, 23 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

I tried it again, now i am tired. there are TOUSANDS sub-template they i must copy. i copied know more then hundreds templates but its not enough. there are tousands other sub templates. It is not possible that the system copy automatically all templates of the english wikipedia here? --Dersimıc 17:10, 23 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

Please getting contact with the admins of the english wikipedia, that thy copy all templates here. My idea were better as the ugly bracket-solution. --Dersimıc 18:56, 23 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

I need to spend a lot of time on it to figure out how it works. I can only do it next weekend since I am working during weekdays. On the other hand, you have to spent more time on your portals and finish them. They are not finished. --Xosere 07:11, 24 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

Ok thank you bra, i will finish them. --Dersimıc 11:51, 24 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

The Problem is, there are no an article about "Teknolociye" and "Zanışiye" or "ilm / ilim", what i should put in to the start box? --Dersimıc 16:13, 24 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

"orman" in your dialect

hi bira, do you know what is the turkish "orman" (wood) in your dialect is? thanks --Dersimıc 22:39, 23 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

i opened an interesant discussion:

http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Destanê_Gılgamışi

--Dersimıc 23:01, 23 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

Orman is "bırr" in Bingol dialect. --Xosere 07:07, 24 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

Good, also we Northern Zazas use "bırr", thank you very much. Then is "daristan" a loanword of kurdish i think. --Dersimıc 11:49, 24 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

very very good

its looks very very good. yes, we don't need "ó" and "á". the other letters are really good. --Dersimıc 11:18, 25 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

hi, sorry that i had not time for the confernce in msn, i had to work. to the new alphabet:

its very very great, thank you for that. and thank you that you you use "sh" and "ch", this is the best solution. because the most zazas dont know things like "crtl + f" or the replace function. and the most zazas dont want to use such replace-functions in word etc. to write simple sentences in zazaki.

the "sh" and "ch" letters are the best solution for our international alphabet problem. --Dersimıc 11:37, 30 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. The other alphabet is using all Turkish diatrics. Zazaki should have its own. And this one is much more functional and can be used everywhere. --Xosere 14:14, 30 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

---

Hi, in no dialect exist the variant "şima", its everywhere "şıma", so why "shima", if in your alphabet the ı = í??

Shíma is then correct.

Look also to the history, it was not "şima" with "i":

http://diq.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Xer_ame&oldid=36612 --Dersimıc 14:26, 30 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

Maybe your PC have problems to show the turkish ı, therefore you think that its were "şima"". but you can ask all zazas, its everywhere şıma with turkish "ı" without dot. Therefore this is in your alphabet shíma. --Dersimıc 14:34, 30 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

---

Other topic, in Asmens alphabet do also exist this letters:

• çh (aspirated ç)
• kh (aspirated k)
• ph (aspirated p)
• th (aspirated t)

How then is a "çh" possible (its means un-aspirated "ç")? "chh" were look stupid.

--Dersimıc 14:51, 30 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

---

the "gh" or "ğ" have nothing do with the "g"-loud. gh or ğ do sound like "x", its like in persian: dorogh = lie (ask your professor how the sounding is, then you know it). so if you dont want to use "ğ", then please use instead of thix "x" as vate, because "gerb" doesnt exist, its "xerb" oder "ğerb". --Dersimıc 18:00, 30 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

---

BUT: I dont think that anybody will accept this alphabet, so its were better, to let the current turkish alphabet of asmen, because the most have a turkish keyboard. the important thing is not design of the letters, this is for the reality not relevant. the important thing ist that our people can write and read problemless. --Dersimıc 19:34, 30 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

Ph/Kh

In my opinion are this letters of asmens alphabet unnecessary. as example: phanc < here is panc enough, or khan < here is kan enough.

he self writes that this letters are special for nothern dialect: http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfabey_Zazaki#Alfabe_ra_q.C3.AAri_veng.C3.AA_bini --Dersimıc 19:34, 30 Heziran 2008 (UTC)

If ph is a northern Zazaki specific, why do Asmen is using it for standard? I can't believe this. I am really getting out of my mind. How could we convince people for our standards? --Xosere 03:57, 1 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

alphabet

Hi, I am personally not against your alphabet. But fact is, that nobody will accept it, not any person. Everybody use the turkish-writing system with ş and ç, also Vate. And if the most Zazas have the turkish keyboard, so it is better to use also ı and ü.

The Vate-System î for = i, i = for ı ist not effective.

I see not a problem in using of i and ı as in Turkish, the most Zazas know this and can read this at the best.

We have an unified alphabet, and this is the turkish with additional sounds: ê, q, x, w, because we need them.

At ê or é we can discuss, or about ğ. But the most use ê, its etablated everywhere. So its not makes since to replace this ê with é. We have now dictionaries, books etc. they use the ê. Only because of the optic we may not change this. The most have now a feeling for the ê, its be a part of the zaza language.

But we can replace ğ with x. Or not use ph, kh etc. --Dersimıc 11:45, 2 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

Bira, there are sadly not other people like I and You. Our people will accept the standard phonetic if we write a book about this, this is no problem, because here we have arguments.

All Zazas use this letters:

• ş, ç

The most Zazas use this letter:

• ê

All Zazaists use this letters:

• i, ı

So its not makes since, to create a new alphabet, because we have already a uniformed alphabet. There are also manys zazaists they write books or do something other for Zazaki. Also nobody of them will accept the new alphabet. The only difference between the Alphabet of the Zazaists and Kurdists are in this letters:

Zazaists use generally this::

• ü, ğ, ı, i

Zaza-Kurdists this:

• û, - , i, î

This is the only difference, and we dont need û or î, if they letters are already in the turkish keyboard.

No Author will accept your alphabet, if you think different, then give me one author as example, they want accept this.

And Zazas, they write long Zaza-Texts buy anyway turkish keyboards, this is no problem. --Dersimıc 10:29, 3 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

standard of none iranic words

hi bira, please add the mongolish and turkish words here, the fonetik page is only for iranic words, for more clearness. thanks

http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standardê_çekuyanê_ğeriban

--Dersimıc 10:35, 4 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

bira, the short "a" in farsi means in zaza alphabet "e", so it "tembur" or "thembur" the most original variant. iranian professors dont know this, because they dont kow the kurdish and zaza writing-system. you can ask this also zazayasar or asmen.

iran. alphabet: â, a, e
kurdiish-zaza.: a, e, ê

therefore is in zazaki "hewt" standard and not "hawt", because "a" in perso-latin-script means "e" in zazaki. --Dersimıc

if in avesta stands pança, then this is in zaza-alphabet: pençe or in azeri alphabet: pənçə.

If in Arabic stands "ammâ", then is this in zaza alphabet "emma", therefore is "ema" of central standard and not "ama".

ps: and we need midle iranian and old iranian examples at iranic words, then i can also bring farsi "goşn" to make "voşn" instead of "veşn" standard.

ps2: do variants as "kaçıke" with "a" and "tambur" with "a" really exist? i heard until this time always "koçıke" and "tembur". we can not create new variants. and the variant "tembur" were anyway the most original variant, you must always translate the perso-arabo-latin-alphabet to the zaza-alphabet.

ps3: asmen said the the most use "phanc", the "h" in "ph" means not "h". ph means = un-aspirated p. there are:

• aspirated P = is writing with "p"
• unaspirated P = is wrting with "ph"

This aspiration and un-aspiration do also exist in the Central Dialect. --Dersimıc 10:49, 4 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Zazakiyê_Wikipediyao_Standard/Fonetikê_Zazakiyê_Standardi#.C3.A7.2C_k.2C_p.2C_t_.2F_.C3.A7h.2C_kh.2C_ph.2C_th

i opened a discussion about this. --Dersimıc 12:59, 4 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

panc

hi, bira we have already an entry for "panc", see here:

http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Zazakiyê_Wikipediyao_Standard/Fonetikê_Zazakiyê_Standardi/a#an_:_on.2C_un

i changed here now "phanc" to "panc". i dont think, that we need double entries, because anyway everybody can see of the historic examples why is "panc" standard and not "phanc". --Dersimıc 18:16, 4 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

ps: i fixed now the spelling of the variants, example: phunc > punc. --Dersimıc 18:19, 4 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

But this entry is different. We want to show the "ph" and "p" difference, not "a" "u" "o" difference. So, I think we should keep it. --Xosere 18:24, 4 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

ok how you mean, but the people see in anyway in this entry, that "panc" is different from "phonc".

if we took an own entry for all louds, then we can create for few words 9 entries.

imagine, that we print the tables to a book, then the people be tired to read 5 times the same word. --Dersimıc 18:25, 4 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

Okay we can delete it then. --Xosere 18:27, 4 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

thanks very much, i also deleted other double words from me. the important thing is the people do learn the standards and know why is a variant is standard. and this is with the historic examples no problem, therefore its not necessary to create for all loud-shiftings in one word many entries. --Dersimıc 18:29, 4 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

i answered:

http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Zazakiyê_Wikipediyao_Standard/Fonetikê_Zazakiyê_Standardi --Dersimıc 18:49, 4 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

to "mocnayene", its were easy if you can ask your professor. in middle persian was this: âmôz-, so i think in avesta this must be with "ç" . --Dersimıc 18:55, 4 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

Ok. I'll ask. Xosere 19:30, 4 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

here is also a discussion about the current zaza-alphabet between me and asmen:

www.zazaki.de

right you click on "Forumê Vengê Zazayan". --Dersimıc 19:59, 4 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

---

a question, what is "hangi" in your dialect? in my dialect: kamci. --Dersimıc 12:04, 6 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

I need to look for it. --Xosere 17:04, 6 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

ps: if you ask where are some examples of the fonetik page, i created for more clearness two new sites and moved them to this sites:

http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Zazakiyê_Wikipediyao_Standard#Fonetik

that the people learn the standards better. --Dersimıc 12:36, 6 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

---

i did sort the words alphabetical like in a dictionary, that one can use the list better and learn the words faster. linguistic sortment makes only the working with the lists hard, its not usuable from the most.

http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Zazakiyê_Wikipediyao_Standard/Wextqıse

with a sortment like in a dictionary the people can use all better, as example if we print the lists to the book. yes then its not possible, to write a descripion in every chapter.

but this is no a problem, we can describe the loud-shifts etc. in the start sites of the book. the lists should be like a dictionary, that the people can use the book everytime problemless to show what spelling is right.

as example, if one want search in a book "maneno, moneno", then its really hard to analize the all words in a loud-shift-chapter like " a / o".

in a alphabetical sortment is this really easy, one must go to chapter "m", then he see the words alphabetical and can find "maneno" immedatly.

anyway thank of the historic examples, the people see, why is a word standard. so its not necessary to create for all 900 loud-shifts own chapters. anyway the loud-differents are marked with bold font.

Good idea. Thanks--Xosere 17:02, 6 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

---

hi bira, in avesta was this çit with normal "i" and not çıt, its were so, then the linguists were write "çt". and asmen says, that the word for "was" was in avesta not "çit", so we should wait until he give a clear answer. --Dersimıc 16:46, 6 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

I answered:

http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pela_Seri#A_common_sentence_for_.22what_is.22

actually asmen give a clear answer, only çı should be like in kurdish and persian standard. so "what is" were then çıyo.

like in kurdish: çıye. also vate use in the standard "çıyo". --Dersimıc 16:51, 6 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

hi again, sorry that i question so much, but its important for the standardization:

its were good if you ask the bingöllüs what ist "game" (step) in the bingöl dialect, thanks. in southern dialect: gam. persian: gâm, kurdish: gav. --Dersimıc 16:29, 7 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

It is gom or gam. --Xosere 16:31, 7 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

ok, i added, what do you think about the feminine -e suffixes in the standard lists, should we use them or not? --Dersimıc 16:42, 7 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

I think we should use them. Xosere 16:44, 7 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

Alphabet

For the alphabet, I think we should use the turkish again. because nobody will accept it and its hard to read texts in this new alphabet. --Dersimıc 18:35, 7 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

It is not hard to read. You are not used to it. That's all. Why should be use Turkish dielectrics? Isn't that against to what we do here? We are against Turkish taking over our language. There is not any accepted alphabet. You think it is hard read the new diactrics and people are not used to it. Well people are getting used to Turkishmore on more. Zazaki getting harder to them and Zazaki seems less and less practical everyday. Where this will stop? If somebody want to keep Zazaki, these three dielectrics are not hard to follow. Xosere 20:32, 7 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

We are against Turkish diacritics. That's all. --Xosere 20:35, 7 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

What has the Alphabet do with Zazaki. Also Kurds use the turkish alphabet, only two letters are in the kurdish alphabet difference, û and î. And the important thing is to write and read problemless in Zazaki. The turks also took letters as ş and ç from the french alphabet. The turks dont coined the Latin Alphabet. The most Zazas live in the Turkey and all Zazaists they I know use the turkish Alphabet. So its not makes sense in my opiniion to change this.

Because nobody will accept this. --Dersimıc 11:14, 8 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

Kurds have an alphabet that is very different from Turkish alphabet. Only ç and ş diacritics are shared. Kurds have q, w, and x which makes Turks crazy. They have hat diacritics î, û, and ê (which I think is a nice combination). Moreover, they don't have ü, ö, ğ and they don't have i - ı (İ - I) system. All those makes Kurdish alphabet way apart from Turkish Latin alphabet. (I count you 11 different letters). So your argument that Kurdish is based on Turkish alphabet is wrong. It is not even close. If you look the Zazaki alphabet that we use here, 5 diacritics are from Turkish and one from Kurdish. We want to minimize Kurdish/Turkish influence. Yet we are using a combination of their writing system. This definitely needs be changed. --Xosere 08:03, 9 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

Also I know why you are saying that it is hard to read the new diacritics. Let me tell you why it's hard for you. First, you are not used to it. Start writing German and English with ç and ş, you'll se it will be difficult to read. The other reaon is "sh" and "ch" makes it hard to read. Actually that is the biggest reason. We can bring ç and ş back, but this will not make the Zazaki alphabet frpm Kurdish latin alphabet. Only difference would be acute and hat letters. If you have any recommendations regarding to "ch" and "sh", I am open to that. --Xosere 08:03, 9 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

What I don't understand is, why it is so important that Zazaki get an own alphabet? The Alphabet has no influence on the language, its only a tool with them one can write in a language. The turks are bad people, also the english are bad people, the french are bad people, americans are bad people. Americans, French and English people had also influence on the todays situation of the Zazas. So, we can take the armanian alphabet. Oops, also many armenians killed Zazas. Then we can use the chinese alphabet. Oops, they killed many Uygurs, Tibetians etc. We can also coin own Computer Systems, because the armericans are bad people. Kurds are also bad people and are against the Existence of the Zazas. So why we use x, q and w. The Romans, the founders of the Latin Alphabet, killed many people of Eastern Anatolia and Mesopotamia. So we can keep the Latin-Alphabet.

The argument, that "this gives zaza an identy" has no any relevance to the reality. The most Zazas will only write in Zazaki and save Zazaki, what is anyway a dead language. So why we should make this only harder. And I don't see any problem in that, that the letter "i" has a point, ğ and ş have not a point. The most Zazas dont' be worried about such unnecessary things.

Turks don't coined their own alphabet, the only letter they are coined were: ı and ğ. ç is from french. ş from other languages. The letters ü and ö are from the german alphabet (the german people do write since hundred years with the latin-system)

And what is the difference between turkish ğ and anglo-persian "gh"? Because Uzbeks use this letter, we should not use them?

We can calculate which people killed more people, english or turks? This all remembers to me to the Idea of ZazaDerbekiij to create as arabs and chinese people own zaza letters.

The most Zazas live in the turkey, why we should make the language far from them? Its not only "sh" or "ch", its also the big I, one read this as turkish "ı". The kurdish alphabet ist not so far from the turkish once, in kurdish big I is reading as "ı" and big Î reading as "i". But in this new alphabet all things are completly different, that people will be confuse.

I don't think that anybody will accept the new alphabet. Nobody wan't to use always the crtl+combination to write a simple sentence in zazaki. People they write long Zaza-Texts buy turkish keyboards, this is the most effective solution.

We ask us self why Zazaists are not an union, but we self destroy the zaza-union with such ideas. Fact is:

• All Zazas use ş and ç, we are not english people.
• All Zaza-Patriots use the turkish ı-System. So why we should change this?
• The most Zazas use: ê. Where is the sense to change this? Also kurds took the ê from an other alphabet.

Haydar Sahin said to me self in MSN, that the Zaza-Alphabet is based of turkish (ı, i, ş, ç, ü, ğ) and kurdish (q, w, x, ê), because that the people can read Zazaki problemless. And this Zaza-Alphabet is using of the most Zaza-Patriots.

Also Central-Zazas as ZazaYasar use the turkish ğ. Also southern Zazas as Koyo Berz us the turkish ğ, look:

http://www.zazaki.de/zazakide/qesebendkoyo/qesebendkoyo.htm.

And also Faruk Iremet use ê. The reason why some Souhtern-Zazas use beside ê also é is that: they mean with the loud é not ê, they use é as an own loud. and ê as an own loud. Look:

http://faruk-iremet.tr.gg/ABC-_-Zazaki-.htm?PHPSESSID=cc6f5c11c05a143a1eeae4c7b25a57a5

The trend to replace ê with é is come from a minoraty, they will be different from the kurds. But fact is, that the most Zazas did accept ê.

We have already an united Zaza Alphabet, so we should accept this. --Dersimıc 11:47, 9 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you get it. I am proposing a new alphabet not because some people are BAD or GOOD. I am proposing it because WE CAN'T USE TURKISH DIACRITICS WHEN WE ARE AGAINST TURKISH TAKING OVER ZAZAKI. Those diacritics are almost a symbol of assimilation. And while we are against Vate's Kurdish albhabet, we are using almost all Turkish diacritics. So what's the point of going against the vate's alphabet? They shouldn't complain about Vate's albhabet. Those Zazaists are pointless here again, as they are most of the time.

Zazaki is not a dead language in my hometown. Small kids speaks it very well. Why don't Zazas get their own alphabet. What is wrong with that? That will make the Zaza identity stronger. You all keep saying people will confuse. I don't see what is hard to learn this. Lazy people already doesn't speak their language. If a person committed to Zazaki, they can easily learn it easily. It takes afford. Well what, we don't have an established alphabet. Selcan has a different alphabet too. Xosere 14:26, 9 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

Bira, this are not turkish diactics, as I showed, only ı and ğ are founded by turks. We have not own keyboards, so its not makes sense to create an own alphabet. The most Zazas have turkish keyboards, therefore we should use the letters in the turkish keyboard plus ê. And also the most Zazas have not kurdish keybaords and don't want to import keyboards from Nortern Iraq.

What is in the Vate Alphabet better? î and û are also not founded by the kurds. and also turks used the letters î and û in the 1930 under Atatürk until 1970.

http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Türk_Alfabesi#Alfabe

What has an alphabet with assimilation to do? If the people write and read in Zazaki problemless, then this is contrary of an assimilation. We should not make the writing with Zazaki harder. We have already an united Alphabet.

PS: People like Selcan and Avestazazaki are not seriously, they live in their own world and have not relation to the reality.

Fact is, all Zazas use ş and ç (except Avestazazaki), and all Zaza Patriots use the turkish ı i System. Also Zülfü Selcan use ş, ç and the ı i-system.

And the most Zaza Patriots use ü and ğ. And I don't see any problems, if they write books in Zazaki problemless with turkish keyboards.

There are not exist any problems in the currently Zaza Alphabet. We as Zazaists (people they fight for Zazas) must support and accept the Standard Zaza Alphabet. Wen can not win anything if we split the Zazaists with an new alphabet. And anyway nobody will accept this Alphabet.

PS2: You showed that Azeris and other turkic people use Ğ. But you forget this: Azeris use also X and Q. And Azeris are one of the people they are a symbol of the turkish assimilation.

Its only an alphabet, the important thing is the content and not how looks a letter. Its were the best if you restore the old alphabet in the start page, the new alphabet of you has sadly no future, nobody will accept it.

PS3: Why sould make different letters the Zaza Identy strong. The most Zazas don't analyze the form and design of the letters, if they read in Zazaki. They want only understand the sentences. The Latin Alphabet is neither turkish nor zazaish. The Zazas don't founded any alphabet. Latin is always the same Latin Alphabet, differences in points don't change this truth.

We have not the financial ressources to build zazaish keyboards. So its not makes sense that a Zaza must always use a crtl-combination to write a simple sentence.

The reason of the using of ê is, that this is not exist in the turkish keyboard. But all other letters for the Zazaki-Sounds do exist in the turkish keyboard.

The Identy of Zazaki can be strong, if the people write with Zazaki and use Zazaki problemless. And its destructive if we make this hard.

PS4: Write in Bingolonline.com a text with your alphabet, so we can see how the people be react. All will be only confuse. And thank of such things the people then depart themself of zazaki. We have anyway understanding-problems thank of the phonetic (the word vocabulary is in all dialects almost the same, there are no big differences), and then now the people see a new alphabet who is understandable of nobody. --Dersimıc 18:36, 9 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand why these new diacritics will confuse Zazas while Kurds are not confused with î, ê, û, x, q, and w. Those letters don't exist in Turkish too, but they are doing pretty well. Absolutely, there is nothing to be confused with í, é, ú, sh, ch. Anybody with an average IQ can get these letters. Keyboard is not a problem either. New diacritics can be created in every keyboard. Don't forget maybe more than half a million Zazas live outside of Turkey, and these new diacritics are very practical for them. Besides, the only Zaza writers live in Turkey are Ismail Soylemez and Fahri pamukcu. I didn't see people from Turkey writing in the wikipediya. Xosere 05:52, 10 Temuz 2008 (UTC) When a Kurd sees a Kurdish text, he/she she it is different from Turkish. Well when an average Zaza seees a Zaza writing, he can't see that difference. Most Zazas don't know if have an alphabet. All they know that we just mixing Turkish letters with x, y, q. People in Bingolonline don't care about wikipediya, i don't see that they will care about the alphabet. I don't really care for Veng u Vac patriots. I don't really care whether they accept anything or not. Yet, they didn't accept anything at all. So, I don't worry about them. Also, if you have a better idea about a new alphabet, I am open to that. --Xosere 05:58, 10 Temuz 2008 (UTC) Well, how many people buys a Kurdish keyboard? Mazilmanij, Munzur Cem? Not much obviously. Yes when you use all Turkish diacritics, as such, Ç ç Ğ ğ İ i I ı Ş ş Ü ü, you are obviously under the influence of Turkish. If those diacritics are not important, why don't we accept Vate's alphabet? Why Veng u vac people complain about Vates alphabet? It is obviously important, actually very important. --Xosere 06:05, 10 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

What has this with IQ to do? I have an IQ of 115 points (tested of a psychologist). Its a thing of acclimatization. And the most Zazas are acclimated on the turkish writing-system, its a fact.

I have personally no a problem with the alphabet, I think only for the normal people. I can read the texts in your alphabet, but I imagine, how normal people were feel themself if they see this texts. Why we should create new problems, if we have anyway 1000 problems? What brings us this? I dont see any advantage.

People they want write long texts in Zazaki, they buy turkish keybaords and don't use in every little sentence crtl + combinations. We use ê, because there is no a key for ê in the turkish keyboard. This is the reason for ê. But if we have for other sounds the buttons, why we don't should use this?

Yes, the most Zaza-Authors live in Europe, but also this authors use the turkish writing-system and they have not a problem with that. Because they have turkish keybaords.

And from where you know, that Munzur Cem etc. have not kurdish keyboads? Even my PKK-friend of Germany orderd a kurdish keyboard.

And the most Zazas don't know how they get kurdish keyboards. Therefore its best solution to use turkish keyboards.

If there is zazaish Education in the turkey, why the kids should write instead of ş an sh in the papers? Where is the sense?

For who you make this alphabet, if not for the normal Zaza people? And this normal people will not accept the Alphabet, because the most already use the Stanadard Alphabet of the Zazaki Institute. --Dersimıc 13:16, 10 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

PS: If you know a way how all Zaza-Authors can get a kurdish keyboard, then we can use the Vate-Alphabet. In the kurdish keyboards is also exist an own button for ê. --Dersimıc 15:36, 10 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

I am using the "IQ" word as an idiomatic meaning. Well most Zazas are acclimated to speak Turkish. What we going to do now? Then Zazas should forget Zazaki. It is the most practical and the easiest way.

Now I included ş and ç. It reads very well. Better than Turkish diacritics combination. Nobody will confuse with í é ú. It is pretty simple. You don't have to even learn them. It is intuitive. Already many people are using é. We don't have a sound ü in Zazaki,--plain simple we don't have that sound--. Letter "u" doesn't corresponds to Zazaki "and" word. Letter ú does much better job here. The letter ü is just a stretch by Zazaists to avoid Kurdish û letter. Ü is mostly used in Uralic-Altaic languages except German.

I myself alone wrote half of the writing here in Wikipedia. Did you know how hard for me was to use those diacritics? Even thought, we used Turkish diacritics, how many people from Turkey wrote how many articles here? I tell you; a few people wrote not more than 20 articles.

And there is no Kurdish keyboard. Where do you bring this story? There are only software converters. Only a few uses it. KEYBOARD IS NOT AN ISSUE. Just don't keep talking about it. Yeah, only Zazaist writers use Turkish writing system. How do you know they have Turkish keyboards? Zazaki Institute doesn't do anything. Maybe a couple of Zazaki courses--only in Pulumur dialect. And nobody has excepted their alphabet except some Zazaists.

If you want we can talk about this on Saturday on MSN.--Xosere 05:06, 11 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

Why you don't believe anything what I say, there are kudish keyboards in production, my friend of Germany ordered it. I can give you the MSN-Adress of him. The Vate-Alphabet is much better as the alphabet that you created, because its does use as Turkish a symbol for the big i > Î. But if the normal people read the I in your alphabet, then they believe, with this is a turkish ı is maening. I personally have no problem with this, i can read problemless the texts in the alphabet. But normal people get problems.

If even nobody here in Wikipedia accept your alphabet, how can then the other people accept this? Then we have only more problems. Today you created your alphabet, tomorrow somebody comes and create a new alphabet.

The Zaza-Institute created a well alphabet and thought for the most Zazas. Its the best and effective methode to write with the turkish system. And many Zaza-Authos use this with little differences, some in Southern use beside ê also é. Some of Central use instead of ü also û. But every Zaza-Patriot use the turkish i-ı-system. We cant change this if we have not an institute. So its senseless to hope, that somebody will accept your alphabet. --Dersimıc 11:30, 11 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

Zaza-Institute is a joke. Why you bring them here. What Zaza patriots you are talking about. Veng u Vac people. Don't make me laugh. As I told you this is not a keyboard issue. This must go. --Xosere 16:09, 12 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

What other people support you if not Zaza Patriots? If even nobody accept your alphabet here, who other will accept it? --Dersimıc 16:19, 12 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

Tell me what do those Zaza patriots in veng u Vac do? Tell me what do Zaza-inst. do? They already don't accept anything. --Xosere 16:28, 12 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

Sorry bıra Xosere very much, but I can't accept the new spelling so God will. Believe me bıra this is not a personal response spite of me, but it is a must. We can not discard a welltried alphabet because of any new ideas simply. Otherwise all our work will be destroyed. That is why I will change everything once again. Greetings! --Mirzali 21:15, 16 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

Kovara Vate Hûmara 31. Vejîya

http://vengezazayan.onlinewebshop.net/forum_entry.php?id=475

--Dersimıc 13:01, 13 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

Hi, i thought that ğ doesn't were in your alphabet. We can replace ğ also with x.

Coğrafya > Coxrafya

"ğ" sounds almost the same with "x" and its only an arabic loansound, whic not using in all dialect. some say "xezal", some "ğezal" etc. ğ is really unnecessary, what do you think? --Dersimıc 17:07, 13 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

ps: if you dont know how the sounding of "ğ" is, I can make for you an audio file, where I speak "Coxrafya" and "Coğrafya". --Dersimıc 17:10, 13 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

I don't think x can repalace ğ. X is supposed to be a strong "h", not a strong "g". For example, in the case of "ğele" which means wheat, you can't write it as "xele". It doesn't give even a close sound at all. Xosere 17:13, 13 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

ok, I understand. --Dersimıc 17:14, 13 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

what you mean with strong g? ğ has not anything with g in the sounding. its sounds like a french or german "r", also asmen says this. its like a light version of x. therefore vate use always x. --Dersimıc 17:17, 13 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

How come it doesn't have anything to do with a strong g. How do you say ğerip, ğele, ğezal. Vate doesn't use ğ just because it doesn't exist in the latin Kurdish alphabet. Xosere 08:19, 14 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

Bira, the loud ğ have doesnt anything with g, i can make for you an audio file. I self learnd from asmen how the speaking is, because this loud is also exist in german. And I self heard how the people of every region speak ğerip, ğele, ğezal, its like a light "x". Its not has any similiarty to "g". If you think different, then make me an audio file, i don't hear any similiraty with "g". ğ is an completly different loud. its has smiliraty with x but not with g.

I don't say that x and ğ were the same, there are big differences, i speak only about the similiraty. i know the differences between this two louds.

One speak the loud ğ with the "kelle" (turkish word for the organ, i dont know the english word for this organ). but the loud "g" is in the speaking and in the using of the speech-organs completly differently. the difference is great as between k and x.

the speaking of ğ is like a french "r" as in "renault" (french speaking). also asmen says this.

so its was a big mistake to write instead of "ğerb" only "gerb" in the past time. its does not anything with "g". --

PS: Here the audio file, where i speak the word "renault" (french) and the zazaki words ğerip, ğele and ğezal:

http://zazaforum.freehostia.com/gh.wma (don't click it, you must copy the adress and past it to the adress bar)

if you hear this, then you know that its not has any similiraty with g. only a far similiraty with x*. if you don't believe to the audio file, you can ask asmen about the corectness in the sounding.

*therefore is in "x" in the iranian alphabet: "kh". and ğ is "gh". because x and ğ are very near louds. --Dersimıc 11:41, 14 Temuz 2008 (UTC)

I listened your voice file. So, that is the sound I am talking about. They are close, but not the same voices. So, there should be a letter for the difference. It is not a big letter anyway. It doesn't make that much difference. Vate doesn't use this just because it doesn't exist in Kurdish alphabet. Xosere 20:53, 14 Temuz 2008 (UTC)